# To what extent should the state protect children from their parents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684 "2014-11-26T16:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/41 "2014-12-02T12:49:45Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > you’re just removing someone’s freedom to educate their children as they see fit on a whim. Do we have that? Not being snarky, really. Just wondering if that’s been established as a right in the US. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/42 "2014-12-02T12:53:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If you’re going to propose something like this you need to provide clear positive proof that all homeschooling is harmful in a tangible way No, I just need to show _some_ of it is, and the impossibility of telling ahead of time which type of homeschooler a particular person might turn out to be. > [@](#): > > or else you’re just removing someone’s freedom to educate their children as they see fit on a whim. Their kids aren’t their property, they have an independent right to a decent education. They still have the freedom to place their kids in the public school that best fits their ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/43 "2014-12-02T16:24:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I just need to show some of it is, and the impossibility of telling ahead of time which type of homeschooler a particular person might turn out to be. Strongly disagree. The bar is much higher than that for something as invasive as taking kids out of their home schooling environment that hasn’t been shown to be harmful. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Their kids aren’t their property They certainly aren’t yours or the state’s property. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/44 "2014-12-02T20:11:31Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I’m not a huge fan of homeschooling but I know several parents doing a great job homeschooling their kids. Absolutely no harm is being done. If you’re going to propose something like this you need to provide clear positive proof that all homeschooling is harmful in a tangible way or else you’re just removing someone’s freedom to educate their children as they see fit on a whim. Indeed. My niece was homeschooled. I was very skeptical, but she turned out to be a great kid. She’s now a straight-A college student majoring in math. She gets jobs offered to her without her even asking for them. Basically, everything she touches turns to gold. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/45 "2014-12-02T20:49:32Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Strongly disagree. The bar is much higher than that for something as invasive as taking kids out of their home schooling environment that hasn’t been shown to be harmful. I think you’re mistaken on which side the bar needs to be placed - holding kids apart from their natural peer society is already harmful. > [@](#): > > They certainly aren’t yours or the state’s property. No. They’re there own people, and they therefore deserve Society’s protection - even when the people they need to be protected from happen to be their parents. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/46 "2014-12-02T20:52:47Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Indeed. My niece was homeschooled. I was very skeptical, but she turned out to be a great kid. She’s now a straight-A college student majoring in math. She gets jobs offered to her without her even asking for them. Basically, everything she touches turns to gold. And I know homeschooled kids who shot themselves when they were 19, or were heroin junkies turning tricks by age 25…which is why anecdotes don’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/47 "2014-12-02T21:20:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think you’re mistaken on which side the bar needs to be placed - holding kids apart from their natural peer society is already harmful. > No. They’re there own people, and they therefore deserve Society’s protection - even when the people they need to be protected from happen to be their parents. Homeschooled kids are not necessarily isolated from other kids. Some have better peer society contexts than kids in public schools You are proposing to “protect” kids _preemptively_, from specific circumstances which may not be harmful at all, and may indeed be superior to the public schools you’d force them into (and, BTW, in most USA jurisdictions there would be no choice of what school they had to attend). We don’t take such an approach for parents who _might, who can tell?_ starve-beat-rape-kill their kids, so how is it sensible to preempt parents who might educate their kids poorly? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/48 "2014-12-02T21:24:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I just need to show _some_ of it is, and the impossibility of telling ahead of time which type of homeschooler a particular person might turn out to be.Their kids aren’t their property, they have an independent right to a decent education. They still have the freedom to place their kids in the public school that best fits their ideology. No, they don’t. At least in the US, there are tons of people who have literally no choice in public schools. There is one in their town, or they are required to use the one they are zoned to. And in many, many cases those public schools are woefully inadequate. I teach in a public school. Public school can be great, and it can certainly be better than what the parents can provide. But there are a great many cases when it’s not the best fit, and some cases where home school really is. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/49 "2014-12-02T21:25:33Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > You’re ignoring a point that’s already been made. The situation of adoption and the situation where a couple is raising their biological child are not the same. And besides the fact that it’s our custom, what objectively makes the situations different? > [@](#): > > When the state has custody of a child, and is deciding where to place that child, the state must do what is in the child’s best interest. And is there an objective reason why we shouldn’t do what is in the best interest of all kids? I’m not ignoring anything, I’m saying there’s no objective reason that our duty to a child should be different depending on whether or not his biological parents are willing to raise him. Or if you prefer whether is parents are adoptive or biological. Why should anything else than the best interest of the kid be relevant? > [@](#): > > not the government’s business, regardless of how they affect the child’s well-being or future prospects. Really? So the well being or future prospects of a child are irrelevant? What matters is whether the parents are happy or not? You mean the kid is a bit like a pet, there for the satisfaction and enjoyment of the parents? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/50 "2014-12-02T21:28:23Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > and, BTW, in most USA jurisdictions there would be no choice of what school they had to attend > [@MandaJo](#): > > No, they don’t. At least in the US, there are tons of people who have literally no choice in public schools. What makes either of you think I’m saying that the only alternative is the current American public school system? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/51 "2014-12-02T21:31:26Z")
**clairobscur** : I think the point there is that the state is entrusted with making decisions in the interest of a child _in state custody_. At some point after a placement is made, the trust is understood to be transferred to the adoptive parents. For kids being raised by their biological parents, the trust is with the parents all along. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/52 "2014-12-02T21:40:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What makes either of you think I’m saying that the only alternative is the current American public school system? What else have you said? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Homeschooling should be outlawed. > [@MrDibble](#): > > They still have the freedom to place their kids in the public school that best fits their ideology. So, move to another country? Reform the “current” system before enrolling my kid? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/53 "2014-12-03T15:16:18Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What else have you said? > > So, move to another country? Reform the “current” system before enrolling my kid? Am I _in_ America? Was the example of alternative teaching models I gave, an _American_ one? Did I say I’d outlaw homeschooling\* with a magic wand\*? Of course there’d have to be changes of the public school system in America alongside stopping homeschooling, to arrive at what I’m proposing. But it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest, just because I didn’t bring up the other changes that would have to be made, that I think the current system is hunky-dory - I never said that. I was making one point, directly addressing the examples in the OP, not advancing an entire education manifesto. I can do that if you like, I have lots of ideas on how to make education better. Although they can all be distilled into “Be Scandiwegia!” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/54 "2014-12-03T15:21:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And I know homeschooled kids who shot themselves when they were 19, or were heroin junkies turning tricks by age 25…which is why anecdotes don’t matter. So present some data that homeschooling is harmful by its very nature and that there are no ways to reform it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/55 "2014-12-03T20:41:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > So present some data that homeschooling is harmful by its very nature Other than the social isolation aspect I already mentioned, I don’t think _all_ homeschooling is harmful _just_ by being homeschooling. It’s the fact that _some_ homeschooling is done for antisocial reasons and religious indoctrination, that means it all has to go. > [@](#): > > and that there are no ways to reform it. I can’t think of a way to reform pure homeschooling in a way that stops religious nutjobs but lets the mere alternative educators through. I can think of lots of ways to add more government oversight into it, but that’s a) not as efficient as just having schools; and b) manifestly not what the nutjob groups like Twelve Tribes etc want from homeschooling. So I’m happy to listen to anyone else’s ideas for reform, but I don’t have any ideas for the system as it stands, other than outlawing it, the way several European countries have effectively done. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/56 "2014-12-03T21:34:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s the fact that _some_ homeschooling is done for antisocial reasons and religious indoctrination, that means it all has to go. Sorry, that’s an extremely weak argument that wouldn’t pass even a low standard of proof of harm in the US or most other places, IMO. You can’t legislate against people being assholes, and it wouldn’t make kids any less likely to affected by their parents’ wishes. This is the perfect example of the cure being worse than the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/57 "2014-12-03T23:40:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Other than the social isolation aspect I already mentioned, I don’t think _all_ homeschooling is harmful _just_ by being homeschooling. It’s the fact that _some_ homeschooling is done for antisocial reasons and religious indoctrination, that means it all has to go.I can’t think of a way to reform pure homeschooling in a way that stops religious nutjobs but lets the mere alternative educators through. I can think of lots of ways to add more government oversight into it, but that’s a) not as efficient as just having schools; and b) manifestly not what the nutjob groups like Twelve Tribes etc want from homeschooling. So I’m happy to listen to anyone else’s ideas for reform, but I don’t have any ideas for the system as it stands, other than outlawing it, the way several European countries have effectively done. There is an easy way. Just give home schooled kids tests twice a year on the material they are supposed to be learning. Everyone in the US loves testing these days, so no one should object. If they know the material, cool. If they have no clue, time to do something. I’m not a teacher but I respect them, and it bugs me that some people think that parents with room temperature IQs are certainly capable of educating their kids as well as someone who is trained. And that the job can be done in ones spare time. I’m sure there are some great home schoolers, and some lousy teachers, but let’s not just assume any parent is capable. Give them a shot, but then fire them from teaching duties if they can’t hack it. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/58 "2014-12-04T00:04:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And is there an objective reason why we shouldn’t do what is in the best interest of all kids? The best interest of kids is almost always to leave them with their family unless that family is so toxic that they are in serious danger. _If_ they are in so much danger that they have to be removed from their families, well, then we do the best we can to find another family, and at that point, we weigh lots of other considerations. But realize that “the best we can” at that point is objectively pretty terrible. Look at how badly things turn out for the average child in foster care. This isn’t a knock on foster parents or adoptive parents, who are generally incredibly selfless and giving. It’s not a knock on social workers, who generally are terribly underpaid, incredibly hardworking, and trying their best to help people. I will admit that I don’t know how to fix things. But as a model for a system we might implement for all children, well, it kind of sucks. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/59 "2014-12-04T08:05:00Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Sorry, that’s an extremely weak argument that wouldn’t pass even a low standard of proof of harm in the US or most other places, IMO. It’s passed the standard in many countries - Germany, Sweden, Spain… Not that I need it to pass any standard, you understand, since this is my solution, not the one I’d try and shove through a US legislature. I’m an idealist, not a crazy person. > [@](#): > > You can’t legislate against people being assholes Nonsense, we legislate such things all the time. > [@](#): > > , and it wouldn’t make kids any less likely to affected by their parents’ wishes. Of course it would - the kids would have at least _some_ time when they are in the care of non-parental adults. > [@](#): > > This is the perfect example of the cure being worse than the disease. Very little in the modern public education front could be worse than what the Twelve Tribes and similar do to their kids. > [@Voyager](#): > > There is an easy way. Just give home schooled kids tests twice a year on the material they are supposed to be learning. This falls under the “government oversight” thing I mentioned, that would render it not like I understand current homeschooling to be. But it misses out on my objection to homeschooling, which has absolutely nothing to do with academic outcomes (I accept the research that shows homeschooled kids frequently outperform public schooled kids academically) - what I would desire is regular visits from CPS for all homeschooled kids, not curriculum tests. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684/60 "2014-12-05T22:48:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But it misses out on my objection to homeschooling, which has absolutely nothing to do with academic outcomes (I accept the research that shows homeschooled kids frequently outperform public schooled kids academically) - what I would desire is regular visits from CPS for all homeschooled kids, not curriculum tests. I do believe that would be a violation of the 4th Amendment, you know, that whole pesky thing about “unreasonable search and seizure”? However you feel about homeschooling, it doesn’t count as “probable cause”. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-the-state-protect-children-from-their-parents/705684.md?page=4)