# To what extent should we limit what we make based on what people NEED?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 2, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075 "2010-05-02T22:51:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/1 "2010-05-02T22:51:56Z")
A post from **elucidator** spurred this thought. An excerpt:
> [@Conservative response to BP spill: unwad your panties](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conservative-response-to-bp-spill-unwad-your-panties/538035/43):
>
> American “culture” has turned into a consumerist pit, a huge machine that grinds up natural resources at one end and produces loud, shiny crap at the other. We don’t need this shit, nobody needs this shit, we just think we do because the people who make a living selling this shit have conned us into thinking we do.
>
> As a classic example, passing tax breaks through Congress so that SUV’s can be sold more readily. Monumentally stupid, short-sighted, and wasteful. We screamed our heads off, nobody listened.
It caught my eye because the BBQ Pit thread on [“manufactured demand”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=557589) was still fresh in my mind.
So here’s the question: to what extent should we only make what people “need”? To what extent should “want” play in it? Does it depend on environmental impact, or whatever other factors you want to think of? Do you believe in “manufactured demand”? If so/not, how does that affect your position?
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/2 "2010-05-02T22:55:59Z")
I like my comic collections and video games, thanks.
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### Author:  [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/3 "2010-05-02T23:19:59Z")
I agree with the quote, unless there are justifying details about the example that I don’t know about.
What we “should” do depends on a lot of things, like what system of values you use to rate our options. That there should even be property rights and private possessions, for instance, isn’t obvious. We’ve evolved the present customs, seen flaws in them, seen other customs fall by the wayside, and hope there will be better future customs that fix some of these flaws.
But I think it’s pretty obnoxious the way we push automobiles as extensions of personality, or as means to show one person’s prowess and power over others. They are appliances that move the planet around under us to bring a different part of it to us, nothing more; they all move the same planet.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/4 "2010-05-02T23:21:48Z")
Ah…a perennial 'dope favorite.
> [@](#):
>
> So here’s the question: to what extent should we only make what people “need”?
Who defines ‘need’? Who decides ‘need’? Based on what metrics?
> [@](#):
>
> To what extent should “want” play in it?
Coupled with ‘can afford’ I’d say…100%. People will define for themselves (I know…it’s a radical concept) what they ‘want’ and what they (individually) ‘need’…and then they will figure out ways to get both, if they can. Or not, if they can’t.
> [@](#):
>
> Does it depend on environmental impact, or whatever other factors you want to think of?
It depends on how each individual looks at their needs and wants, and determines what they can and can’t afford, and what they want to afford. And what factors they individually place on their decision loops to make their decisions.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you believe in “manufactured demand”?
No, I think it’s a load of bullshit that people who don’t understand economics use in order to explain consumerism. People buy what they can want and need, limited by factors such as what they can afford (as well as a host of other factors). Companies don’t manufacture demand…they fulfill demand. Or they go out of business, if their products aren’t in demand. Pretty simple, really.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/5 "2010-05-02T23:23:58Z")
All anybody needs is food and water and air. That’s it. Everything else is a want. In other words, I don’t think there’s a lot to be gained by trying to determine the difference between a “need” and a “want.”
Let’s say you think you have come up with the perfect formula that accurately differentiates between needs and wants. What do you do then? Forbid the manufacture or import of anything that is a want?
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### Author:  [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/6 "2010-05-02T23:26:33Z")
We shouldn’t.
It’s no ones place to tell me what I can, or can’t, make because I don’t “need” it.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/7 "2010-05-02T23:30:28Z")
> [@xtisme](#):
>
> Coupled with ‘can afford’ I’d say…100%. People will define for themselves (I know…it’s a radical concept) what they ‘want’ and what they (individually) ‘need’…and then they will figure out ways to get both, if they can. Or not, if they can’t.
Devil’s advocate: so if the new hot thing that everyone wants (made of spontaneous demand) requires a hundred square miles of rainforest, a million gallons of water, and a hundred live kittens each to produce, that shouldn’t matter? That is what 100% seems to mean, after all. 🙂
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/8 "2010-05-02T23:32:28Z")
I can endorse the second part of the quote in the OP-- we shouldn’t be passing legislation to encourage people to buy particular things.
Other than that, I really can’t see the justification for limiting the manufacture of things just because that thing is beyond what anyone “needs”.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/9 "2010-05-02T23:43:03Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper]
Devil’s advocate: so if the new hot thing that everyone wants (made of spontaneous demand) requires a hundred square miles of rainforest, a million gallons of water, and a hundred live kittens each to produce, that shouldn’t matter?
[/QUOTE]
Do you ‘need’ energy? Well, that requires a non-zero impact on the environment, and probably several thousand HUMAN deaths a year as well. Basically, it’s up to individuals to define what their wants and needs are, and to put them in terms of what they are willing to tolerate, kittens wise. Personally, since I don’t like cats particularly, the kittens aspect would be a bonus (I’m joking, for the humor impaired cat loves).
The thing is, that new products coming on the market can either be losers or winners. The winners are those that make ‘spontaneous demand’ where said demand didn’t exist before. Sort of like how the car created ‘spontaneous demand’ that didn’t exist prior to it’s invention and the ability for it to penetrate a mass market, or like personal computers doing the same things created ‘spontaneous demand’, while jet powered cars never did catch on.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I can endorse the second part of the quote in the OP-- we shouldn’t be passing legislation to encourage people to buy particular things.
[/QUOTE]
Totally agree. Passing legislature that purposely creates an artificial demand is on par with passing legislature that purposely stifles demand based on some 'crats opinions on what people need or don’t need. It’s really the flip side of the same coin.
-XT
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/10 "2010-05-02T23:45:18Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> … a hundred square miles of rainforest, a million gallons of water, and a hundred live kittens each to produce …
I want one - hell, I _need_ one. Sounds a trifle out of my price range, though.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [May 2, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/11 "2010-05-02T23:51:05Z")
> [@Leaper](#):
>
> Devil’s advocate: so if the new hot thing that everyone wants (made of spontaneous demand) requires a hundred square miles of rainforest, a million gallons of water, and a hundred live kittens each to produce, that shouldn’t matter? That is what 100% seems to mean, after all. 🙂
The market for that wonderful thing will be vanishingly small since the price will be vanishingly high. Except for the live kittens. They’re a dime a dozen, so into the kitten killing machine they go!
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/12 "2010-05-03T01:05:59Z")
Here’s a thought for you. Poor people are limited to buying what they need because they can’t afford to buy much more than that. But by creating all these government entitlements, it allows them to buy more stuff they don’t need (and helps to create unsustainable levels of national debt).
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/13 "2010-05-03T03:52:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Here’s a thought for you. Poor people are limited to buying what they need because they can’t afford to buy much more than that. But by creating all these government entitlements, it allows them to buy more stuff they don’t need (and helps to create unsustainable levels of national debt).
Most of the major spending programs in the US are devoted to health care, pensions for the elderly and education. Its not cash subsidies to buy luxury items.
Either way, manufactured demand is real. I don’t see why that’d be controversial. The ad agency is designed to encourage emotional insecurity and brand loyalty.
Western europe has taken a different (and preferable) route than the US. They devote more income to making sure needs are secure (housing, health care), have lower income inequality and have more leisure time. I think housing is smaller, and the cars are smaller while the taxes are higher.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/14 "2010-05-03T04:15:42Z")
No surprise, I believe manufactured demand exists. Rather than limiting what gets manufactured, how about eliminating advertising? Instead of being inundated with carefully targeted and crafted advertisements everywhere, all the time, I’d be interested in letting a free market actually play out in stores, with people going to a store and purchasing things there that they need or want without advertising/marketing interference.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/15 "2010-05-03T12:55:48Z")
Say I’m a coal miner. If I already have everything I “need,” and am prevented from getting anything I “want” . . . then what’s motivating me to continue going down into that mine every day, risking my life to fulfill the “needs” of over 6 billion people? Is touchy-feely altruism enough to motivate me?
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### Author:  [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/16 "2010-05-03T15:05:52Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> Say I’m a coal miner. If I already have everything I “need,” and am prevented from getting anything I “want” . . . then what’s motivating me to continue going down into that mine every day, risking my life to fulfill the “needs” of over 6 billion people? Is touchy-feely altruism enough to motivate me?
Best point of this thread.
Without incentives to motivate people (bigger house, nicer car, newer iPod, well funded 401k plan, that next vacation, the nice dinner in the city, toys for my kids, etc. etc.) who would do the jobs that no one else wanted to. Or better yet, who would want to create anything new to make our lives better (new virus vaccine, new antihistamine, more fuel effecient car, better running shoes, faster computers, next wireless technology, etc. etc.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/17 "2010-05-03T21:35:32Z")
That speaks to my point, too - instead of rapacious consumption guided by manufactured demand, take advertising out of the picture and slow down the rate of consumption (and invention) to something manageable. I don’t see this question as completely black or white - either we consume everything, or we consume nothing.
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### Author:  [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/18 "2010-05-03T21:48:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#):
>
> That speaks to my point, too - instead of rapacious consumption guided by manufactured demand, take advertising out of the picture and slow down the rate of consumption (and invention) to something manageable. I don’t see this question as completely black or white - either we consume everything, or we consume nothing.
You can’t take advertising out of the picture, for many, many reasons. It’s unrealistic, and not even an action that would benefit anyone anyway.
On top of that, it would hijack the hell out of this thread.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/19 "2010-05-03T21:59:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#):
>
> . . . take advertising out of the picture . . .
Violation of free speech. And what’s the point of making a product if you’re not allowed to tell people about it?
> [@](#):
>
> . . . and slow down the rate of consumption (and invention) to something manageable.
“Manageable”? Managed by whom? And how exactly do you slow down the rate of _ **invention???** _
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/to-what-extent-should-we-limit-what-we-make-based-on-what-people-need/538075/20 "2010-05-03T22:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Whisperer]
That speaks to my point, too - instead of rapacious consumption guided by manufactured demand, take advertising out of the picture and slow down the rate of consumption (and invention) to something manageable. I don’t see this question as completely black or white - either we consume everything, or we consume nothing.
[/QUOTE]
That’s the problem. Folks are always wanting to ‘manage’ everything, as if they know what’s best (what is or isn’t ‘rapacious consumption’ for instance).
I’d say it is pretty black or white. Either you let people decide for themselves what they need/want, or you decide for them to one degree or another. My question would be…why do you think you (or some government 'crat) knows best what my needs and wants are? Even leaving aside the potential for abuse, why people think they know what’s best for others always puzzles me.
-XT
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