# Today, 65 years ago **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2002, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759 "2002-07-07T07:43:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/21 "2002-07-08T07:23:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\* > > Well, I am glad that it didn’t take long for someone to resort to conjecture and lies. > > \*\* From the _Los Angeles Times_, 17 June 2002: “Details of the plan were contained in a _Washington Post_ story Sunday that said … Bush’s plan approved the possible use of CIA and **U.S. Special Forces teams** [bolding added] to capture Hussein, or even kill him in self-defense.” And these quotes from the Blusterer In Chief: From the [Washington Post, 30 Jan 2002](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A59025-2002Jan30¬Found=true) We will be deliberate," Bush said, "yet time is not on your [terrorists] side. **I will not wait on events, while dangers gather."** [bolding added] From the [West Point Graduation Speech](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020601-3.html) “Our security will require the best intelligence, to reveal threats hidden in caves and growing in laboratories. … Our security will require transforming the military you will lead – a military that must be ready to strike at a moment’s notice in any dark corner of the world. And our security will require all Americans to be forward-looking and resolute, to be **ready for preemptive action** [bolding added] when necessary to defend our liberty and to defend our lives.” I suppose these comments could be interpreted to mean that GW wants to be ready and have the military be ready to rush into action to attempt to build a “moment’s notice coalition to bring diplomatic pressure on governments that support terrorists.” Just the same I’m not sure “conjecture and lies” are exactly justifiable. And the whole point was that we don’t need to wait for some imaginary “Japanese militarism” when we have plenty of our own. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/22 "2002-07-08T08:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _Tamerlane_ > My understanding was that the only way Torstensson restored discipline was by a) bringing in some fresh Swedish reinforcements with him when he took over command, which he used to stiffen up the ranks and b) brutalizing it back into shape with floggings and [hangings]. Before he proceeded with that he paid them their sold in 1641 for the first time in quite some time, not so surprisingly that helped discipline somewhat. But you’re right we are way, way off the topic here and I am bending historical fact to somewhat awkwardly make rhetorical points that have already been made. **Urban Ranger** , would you care to tell us what your intent with the OP was and what you hoped we might debate or should we perhaps take your absence in the thread as a sign that the ‘debate’ is over? Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/23 "2002-07-08T11:23:22Z")
July 8, 1853, an expedition led by Commodore Matthew Perry arrived in Yedo Bay, Japan, on a mission to seek diplomatic and trade relations with the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/24 "2002-07-08T12:51:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > **Well, I suppose it depends on how you define the word “occupy.” My point is that there is a significant American military presence in Japan.** Well, that isn’t how I’d define “occupy.” In the military sense, to “occupy” a country with your troops means your troops actually control the country. American troops do not control Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/25 "2002-07-08T21:44:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\* > …Just the same I’m not sure “conjecture and lies” are exactly justifiable… > \*\* Since I have yet to see where President Bush has “…proclaimed on several occasions that, based on mere suspicion, he has the right to send his country’s military forces to make a first strike attack on another country”, what you said was at best, conjecture, at worst, lies. ‘Mere suspicion’ has nothing to do with our military actions. Confirmable intelligence is what lead us to Afghanistan, and is leading us back to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/26 "2002-07-08T23:51:48Z")
Brutus. Tom and David both gave you cites and argument. What do you need next? A private audience with GWB so that he can explain it to you in person? BTW you still owe me thanks and an apology. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/27 "2002-07-09T00:03:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \* > \*\*Brutus. > > Tom and David both gave you cites and argument. What do you need next? A private audience with GWB so that he can explain it to you in person? > > BTW you still owe me thanks and an apology. > > Sparc \*\* They gave me arguments, but no cites. I suppose the lot of you have some sort of dyslexia, and cannot see the phrase ‘based on mere suspicion’ that Mssr.Simmons wrote. Since President Bush never stated or inferred that we’d be kicking in the door, ‘based on mere suspicion’, I stand by the fact that said phrase is a lie. What do I owe you a thanks and apology for? Let me guess: Thanks for reminding that today was the 9th anniversary of Kim Il Sung’s death. I am sorry for your loss, Sparc. That do it? ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2002, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/28 "2002-07-09T01:05:43Z")
Tom gave you this [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A45929-2002Jun1¬Found=true), which you very well know he did, although you pretend otherwise. You also know very well what you owe me thanks and apologies for young man. I won’t take you to town on it though - you enjoy that far too much. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/29 "2002-07-09T01:17:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparc \* > \*\*Tom gave you this [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A45929-2002Jun1¬Found=true), which you very well know he did, although you pretend otherwise. > > You also know very well what you owe me thanks and apologies for young man. I won’t take you to town on it though - you enjoy that far too much. > > Sparc \*\* Not to quibble, but that article says nothing about initiating military actions “based on mere suspicion”. Only a fool would equate a first-strike policy with a blind-strike policy, which is what attacking ‘on mere suspicion’ would be. Sparc, you know better then that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2002, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759/30 "2002-07-09T06:52:39Z")
IMHO, that which is is quibble-worthy should not be characterized by as a lie. I thank the posters here who maintain a healthy ratio between information and fact on the one hand and rhetoric on the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-65-years-ago/117759.md?page=1)