# Today, I have to call a difficult meeting. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430 "2009-09-17T09:51:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/21 "2009-09-17T16:49:45Z")
> [@Aw\_Hamburgers](#): > > I surprised at the responses so far. I think what your employee is doing is ok and he’s just covering his bases. Here’s my take on it from Employee A’s perspective: > > Employee A feels like he is entitled to a raise. He wants to ask you for it, probably would rather stick with your company anyways, just wants to be rightfully compensated for his time. Does his research, applies at other companies to see what the comparable rate is at other places so he has a base number to work with. New Firm offers him 5% more of what he’s making with You, so he now he can go back with you and negotiate a raise. He will say “I deserve a raise, the market is paying more with other companies, I’ve worked with you for 8 years, etc etc” You can agree or disagree and he can decide from there if he wants to stay with you or move on. Ditto. I thought this was the appropriate way to do this, actually. I’d love to stay with you, but you’re just not paying me enough - it’s not personal, but I need more. So you could give me a raise. if you can’t see your way clear to that, well I guess I better find another job. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/22 "2009-09-17T17:04:56Z")
You’re taking it too personally. If a person can get a better wage elsewhere he has the right to get more money. If it’s in the same line of work and he can get more money this means you’re under compensating him. I once asked for a raise and my boss told me “Mark go out and get some firm offers then I can go to H/R and the GM and have some evidence to back up you’re worth the extra money.” Well I did this, except once I got a “firm” offer I just left the company and took the other job. The bottom line is you’re running a business not making friends. If you are in fact underpaying him and can afford to pay more and NOT doing this, you’re wrong. If you simply can’t afford to pay him more money, state this and say he is certainly free to look for employment elsewhere, at a wage he believes he deserves. Unfotunately Bob pulled, what Ralph Kramden calls, “the old squeeze play,” and you got your feelings hurt. If I were you I’d sit Bob down and explain why you can’t give him more money. Then if he is a good worker, keep him but prepare to replace him in a moment’s notice if he does quit. Good employees are hard to find, no sense firing him over hurt feelings, you’re there to run a business not be friends ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/23 "2009-09-17T17:40:09Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Ditto. I thought this was the appropriate way to do this, actually. I’d love to stay with you, but you’re just not paying me enough - it’s not personal, but I need more. So you could give me a raise. if you can’t see your way clear to that, well I guess I better find another job. It may be appropriate to ask for a raise and cite the industry standard pay, or even to take your employer another offer. It is most certainly not a good idea to let your employer know you are actively looking for another employer and/or having a recruiter call for a reference. That’s extremely stupid, and is likely to get you fired in a lot of companies. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/24 "2009-09-17T17:40:30Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Just be an adult about it. Tell him you can’t afford to give him a raise right now, but that if he wants to leave, you’ll give him a good reference. > > That calls his bluff and puts the ball back in his court. > > One of the wisest things I was ever told was this: “The best time to look for a job is when you’ve got one.” He’s just doing what’s best for him, which is what we should all do. He’s not trying to hurt you or your company. This is the advice I was about to type too. And be sure to offer the letter of recommendation. If he isn’t really looking for another job and wants to stay, the offer of recommendation is a little pat on the back that tells him he is valued. It’s not a raise, but it’s something. Stay professional. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/25 "2009-09-17T17:51:22Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Unfotunately Bob pulled, what Ralph Kramden calls, “the old squeeze play,” and you got your feelings hurt. That’s a pretty ridiculous characterization of what happened. The guy is actively looking for another job, which potentially means he can’t be relied upon from this point forward. Hurt feelings has nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, I’m not sure why you got the idea that the OP is trying to be “friends” with his employee. ---
**Author:** ![Jorge\_Burrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Jorge\_Burrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge_Burrito)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/26 "2009-09-17T18:11:15Z")
Correct me If i am wrong but isn’t 22% since 2001 just \<3% a year which is basically just covering inflation? While of course it depends on what salary he started with and what salary he could make at other companies I wouldn’t exactly say that he is payed pretty well. Doesn’t matter though, I would fire his ass. He has shown he has no loyalty to you and as soon as he finds something better may very well quit, quite possibly at a very inopportune timing. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/27 "2009-09-17T18:40:13Z")
> [@longPath](#): > > I run a small business. We make widgets. We used to be a lot bigger but people are buying fewer widgets and the economy… blah blah blah. > > I have two employees. Bob makes widgets and Sally answers the phone and does all the clerical work. The other day, Bob sends me vague, cryptic email the bottom line of which is that he wants a raise in pay. He references cost of living data. > Bob is payed pretty well (I think). His Pay, commission and benefits package has increased by more than 22% since 2001. > > Before I got a chance to respond to the email, I received a call from a HR recruitment company looking for a reference for Bob. (!?) When I told the HR guy Bob still worked for me and had not suggested that he was looking to move, he apologized and said there must have been a mistake. A few minutes later, HR calls back and says: no mistake, Bob gave my name as a reference and will I answer some questions? I told Bob in an email that I had been called for a reference but he didn’t respond nor did he mention the matter at work yesterday. > > This looks like he’s trying to secure a pay raise by making me fear he will leave. Why not just ask me? 😕 > > So today, I have to tell him: Sorry your not happy, no raises at this time and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. > > Anyone think I am missing something? (I know there is a lot of information missing) > > Unless I’m way off-base, he won’t have planned for this outcome. It is perfectly acceptable for someone to want to make more money. 22% increase in 8-9 years is below inflation…so he is making less now then he did in 2001…especially since you included ‘benefits package’. When I taught, the community and administration considered increases in the cost of health insurance to be a ‘raise’ even though the insurance was EXACTLY THE SAME! That is not a ‘raise’. You are paying him less than inflation…he went to you asking for an increase. You said no. He is now looking. He is not being an asshole here. Stupid…yes. You never use current bosses as references unless they have tentatively offered you the job and then request it…but also has been with you a long time so he probably doesn’t have many. Don’t punish this poor guy. You are paying him less and less as time goes by (adjusted for inflation). He has given you nearly 10 years of his life. Be nice. let him go. Don’t fire/punish him. I.e. don’t be an asshole. Be a mentor. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/28 "2009-09-17T19:11:52Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > It is perfectly acceptable for someone to want to make more money. 22% increase in 8-9 years is below inflation…so he is making less now then he did in 2001…especially since you included ‘benefits package’. When I taught, the community and administration considered increases in the cost of health insurance to be a ‘raise’ even though the insurance was EXACTLY THE SAME! That is not a ‘raise’. Of course its a raise. You might be getting the exact same thing, but that thing is now worth more than it was 5 years ago. Anyways, it sounds like HR Recruitment company drone is a grade A moron and either Bob is one as well or made a mistake. It isn’t unseemly to put down your current employer. However, it should be made explicitly clear that he is currently employed there and that they shouldn’t be called for references. As for Bob, it sounds like he might be underpaid. A 22% increase, as noted, is below inflation. After 8 years of acquiring skills in most jobs he ought to be worth more now than when he was first hired. However, his specific industry/job might be different. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/29 "2009-09-17T19:33:25Z")
Let’s be realistic, shall we… You run a widget manufacturing business. You are about to lose your sole widget manufacturer or 50% of your widget manufacturing capacity. Bob is about to get another job; HR personnel typically don’t bother with the effort of calling references unless an offer is being prepared. You, in a fit of pique, are going to tell him “Don’t let the door hit in the ass on your way out.” Or in other words, “Take the other job.” You say you haven’t been doing so hot in the poor economy, but I wonder: What do you think you’ll sell once you’re pared down to just the Big Boss and his secretary? Perhaps you think people will pay to leave you phone messages? It’s not Bob who’s being held by the short-and-curlies here. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/30 "2009-09-17T20:25:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Of course its a raise. You might be getting the exact same thing, but that thing is now worth more than it was 5 years ago. It is not ‘worth more’. It is health insurance that gives you x benefits. In 2001, it gave you x benefits. In 2009 it is giving you x benefits. By Ogg…I still remember a conversation with administration arguing that reducing medical insurance quality is NOT a pay raise (they reduced benefits but since it cost the school more they wanted us to considered it a raise - arrrgggg - inflation people…inflation!) This is not ‘worth more’. It is not a ‘raise’. Salary increases equal to inflation is keeping the salary the same. Salary increases below inflation is a pay cut. Sure, the DOLLARS might be higher, but those dollars are worth less. Like the 22% more. Lets say the 22% is actual dollars more and not just increased cost of benefits. If inflation runs 3% a year than in 9 years there is 27%+ (with compounding) inflation…therefore the employee has taken a 5%+ pay cut. He did not get a 22% raise over the past 9 years but received a pay cut. If that 22% includes increased benefit costs for the same thing…the employee is really taking it in the shorts. Plus…after 9 years…shouldn’t you be making more? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/31 "2009-09-17T20:41:54Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Let’s be realistic, shall we… > > You run a widget manufacturing business. You are about to lose your sole widget manufacturer or 50% of your widget manufacturing capacity. Bob is about to get another job; HR personnel typically don’t bother with the effort of calling references unless an offer is being prepared. > > You, in a fit of pique, are going to tell him “Don’t let the door hit in the ass on your way out.” Or in other words, “Take the other job.” > > You say you haven’t been doing so hot in the poor economy, but I wonder: What do you think you’ll sell once you’re pared down to just the Big Boss and his secretary? Perhaps you think people will pay to leave you phone messages? > > It’s not Bob who’s being held by the short-and-curlies here. You have no idea if the job can be done by anyone off the street, do you? You don’t know what kind of an inventory the OP has built up, do you? I’m going to go out on a limb and say that if the OP is willing to let the employee go, then the employee doesn’t have anyone by anything. Crazy, I know. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/32 "2009-09-17T20:49:51Z")
Don’t go into business if you are going to take things personally. Don’t shove job hunts into current employers’ faces. Don’t die on a raise bridge when the alternative is no job or no employee. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/33 "2009-09-17T21:02:05Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You have no idea if the job can be done by anyone off the street, do you? You don’t know what kind of an inventory the OP has built up, do you? > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say that if the OP is willing to let the employee go, then the employee doesn’t have anyone by anything. Crazy, I know. Pal, if I could make money running a business by sitting in an office, having my secretary hold my calls, and _not_ manufacturing widgets, I would have heard about it. ---
**Author:** ![Aw\_Hamburgers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@Aw\_Hamburgers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aw_Hamburgers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/34 "2009-09-17T21:16:02Z")
> [@Jorge\_Burrito](#): > > Correct me If i am wrong but isn’t 22% since 2001 just \<3% a year which is basically just covering inflation? While of course it depends on what salary he started with and what salary he could make at other companies I wouldn’t exactly say that he is payed pretty well. > > Doesn’t matter though, I would fire his ass. He has shown he has no loyalty to you and as soon as he finds something better may very well quit, quite possibly at a very inopportune timing. What?! You’d FIRE somebody over this? Since when does loyalty pay the bills? Have you never looked for another job or something? What he did was totally standard and appropriate… except the HR guy calling which may be an error on the HR guy, not the employee. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/35 "2009-09-17T21:29:23Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Pal, if I could make money running a business by sitting in an office, having my secretary hold my calls, and _not_ manufacturing widgets, I would have heard about it. In other words, you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word “inventory”. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/36 "2009-09-17T21:32:57Z")
> [@Aw\_Hamburgers](#): > > What?! You’d FIRE somebody over this? Since when does loyalty pay the bills? Have you never looked for another job or something? What he did was totally standard and appropriate… except the HR guy calling which may be an error on the HR guy, not the employee. It’s also standard and appropriate in many places to fire someone once you realize they are conducting a job search. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/37 "2009-09-17T21:37:47Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It’s also standard and appropriate in many places to fire someone once you realize they are conducting a job search. I never really understood this. If the employee is doing a decent job, wouldn’t you rather have them leave on good terms with enough time to train their replacement rather than fire them and lose the potential training and possibly seamless transition? By firing them, you’re just ensuring a gap in productivity. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/38 "2009-09-17T21:44:01Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > I never really understood this. If the employee is doing a decent job, wouldn’t you rather have them leave on good terms with enough time to train their replacement rather than fire them and lose the potential training and possibly seamless transition? By firing them, you’re just ensuring a gap in productivity. Maybe. But you’re also limiting their ability to collect proprietary work, sensitive information, sales leads, etc. from your company and take them to a competitor. In some positions, it’s worth the loss of productivity to prevent that. There’s no one-size-fits-all answer - it depends on the industry, the company, and the position. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/39 "2009-09-17T21:44:02Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > I never really understood this. If the employee is doing a decent job, wouldn’t you rather have them leave on good terms with enough time to train their replacement rather than fire them and lose the potential training and possibly seamless transition? By firing them, you’re just ensuring a gap in productivity. There could be a couple of reasons: 1. You don’t know the employee is leaving, just that they might. They might do so in a very very inconvenient time. Better to do it on your own terms. 2. In the IT world, even people who give 2 weeks notice are often asked to leave immediately. They don’t want information about technology, clients, etc. to be harvested. ETA: 3) Most companies don’t like pay for an employee’s job search. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430/40 "2009-09-17T21:44:54Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > In other words, you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word “inventory”. Good point. Assuming the OP’s not interested in selling his merchandise. And if he has accumulated enough inventory to go without needing anyone to manufacture its replacement, he has a lot more to worry about than just this guy quitting. Let me guess: you’re an, ahem, entrepreneur? You run a little hobby shop, yes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-have-to-call-a-difficult-meeting/510430.md?page=3)