Today, I helped 100+ people miss their flights

Bravo Broomstick.

From the cockpit …

The airline has a contract with an emergency medical advice service. Whenever somebody gets sick, we relay whatever info we can get from the flight attendants, EMTs, doctors, whatever to the folks on the ground. Obviously they weight the info they get differently if it comes from an MD versus from a flight attendant.

Based on what they hear, the MDs there make a recommendation to divert or to continue to destination. They also give us an indication of the urgency.

We have an established list of acceptable airports for the airplane, and the folks on the ground have a list of airports with suitable hospital arrangements. We cross-match the lists & consider weather & whatnot to arrive at a suitable divert destination.

While all this evaluation is going on we’ve warned ATC to prepare for a divert, notified the airline HQ, and kept up our usual thorough job of just flying to the destination.

If we decide (ie the Captain decides, everybody else advises) that a divert is appropriate, we tell ATC & they clear a path to the field. Meanwhile, the medical service calls the relevant hospital, ambulance, and airport to get them moving as well.

For us, the rest of the flight is mostly routine except we’re going to an unexpected airfield, maybe one neither of us have ever seen.

if we’re closer than about 100-120 mile from the airport when the divert begins, we’ve gotta scramble to get everything ready & to descend rapidly enough to get to approach altitude before we get to the airport. Often during the advise & decide phase when it looks likely we’re diverting but are unsure where, we’re setting up 2 or 3 different scenarios so we can pick one & go.

I’ve done a divert from altitude when we where 50 miles from the field & it’s a mighty scramble to stuff 15 minutes of work into 10. We’ve got to always be mindful that we don’t want to hurry up too much and thereby jeopardize everybody’s lives for one person’s probably-non-fatal condition. As I say it, “it’s OK to work quickly, but do not, ever, rush in an airplane.”

We don’t fly any faster than normal. Over the short distances invloved, the minute or two we might gain are immaterial given the time spent in approach, taxi, getting the ambulance crew on board, getting the person off the plane, driving to the hospital, etc.

In almost every divert I’ve ever done or heard about, the person was nearly well by the time we parked.

They tell us the average divert costs $50K. Diverting a 737 somewhere over the States might be more like $30K, while diverting a 747 out over the ocean may well cost $200K.

An interesting problem with an A380 is that with that many folks on board & such long flights they’ll have a medical event of some sort on maybe half the flights. Clearly there’s going to be a push for proceeding to destination and making do with the tools & people on board. There have been industry discussions about hiring RNs or EMTs and training them as FAs, but I don’t see that going too far.

The first flight attendants actually were RN’s - it was a job requirement. That changed after the 1930’s, though.

But given we already have a nursing shortage, and the drive to reduce labor costs, that could be a really hard sell in the board room. RN’s aren’t going to be as cheap as “standard issue” FA’s.

Even so - some advanced first aid traing for FA’s would be advisable, if they aren’t doing that already. There are some things you’re just never going to be able to handle on board an airplane, but for a lot of other stuff you should be able to train people to at least keep things from getting much worse.

I think it sounds like you did a great job.

You forgot the Ringer’s Lactate…

Was the reroute needed? Should she have flown in the first place? If not is she paying the other passengers for their inconvenience? Why was she on this plane at all!?!?

Don’t get me wrong, you did what you needed to do and I fault you not.

Why shouldn’t she have flown?

And I suspect she was on the plane because she needed to fly someplace. Many people do, even those with chronic conditions.

See that is the difference between having a doctor and an auto mechanic. I would have started an IV of WD-40.
:eek:
:smack:

You forgot to read the rest of the thread

Almost certainly. Aside from the legal and economic implications (i.e. potential lawsuit) of not getting an ailing customer to needed medical care in a timely manner, ethically and morally it was also the correct thing to do.

We’re all probably better off with her having been a passenger on an airplane as opposed to her behind the wheel of a car on a freeway while having her “episode”. On an airplane, the worst that happens is that many people are inconvenienced and she dies. In a car, not only can she inconvenience other people and die herself, she can take out a few other folks at the same time. Diverting an airliner is not the worst of all possible outcomes.

Blame the victim much? Seriously, I doubt this woman woke up in the morning and said “What a nice day to have a stroke! How can I make others suffer along with me? I know - I’ll get on a trans-continental airline flight, have the medical emergency at 35,000 feet, and cause all sorts of trouble! What fun!”

I dunno, maybe I should sue the estate of the woman who dropped dead on my commuter train last year and made me seriously late for work. Emotional trauma and lost work time and all that. :rolleyes:

Presumably, because she felt a need to take the trip. Should we put everyone with less than perfect health under house arrest…?

There are some conditions incompatible with air travel, but a history of stroke is not one of them. It may be that if a doctor had examined her before she stepped on the airplane there may have been no indication whatsoever that this was going to happen - not everything is predictable, particularly when it comes to the human body. Stuff happens. That’s why FA’s are trained to spot problems and initiate various procedures, as are the pilots and ground personnel and medlink and so forth - to deal with unplanned emergencies.

Personally, despite inconvenience, I find it reassuring that the airline would divert for an ill passenger. Why? Because one day it might be ME that needs the help!

OK I would have (and did) assume that her condition should have meant that she should not fly for medical reasons, and she did, which (w/ my assumption) would be negligent of her.

Victim? was a crime commited? I must have missed that one.

I don’t know what K-dur is, but it would seem like she should take her meds that are prescribed if she is going to fly. Then again K-Dur might be a laxative which wouldn’t be the best thing under the circumstances.

No but where do you draw the line? What costs should someone in need of medical attention be held responsibile for?

K-Dur is a potassium supplement.

As for the latter questions, I am hard-pressed to think of any circumstance in which you’d fine someone for falling ill on a plane, unless perhaps their physician specifically forbade them to fly.

K-dur is potassium. Some diuretics (not the ones she was one) cause you to lose potassium. The husband was a poor historian, and I couldn’t completely trust his med list – it is quite possible that she was on another diuretic like furosemide that cause you to lose potassium. Having low potassium is a problem – it can cause weakness and dizziness and in extremes can cause things like irregular heartbeat. But it is far better to have low potassium than high potassium (that’s why I didn’t give her a K-dur on the plane).

Some people have a stroke, they get started on anti-cholesterol and blood pressure meds, they lose some weight, and they recover completely after some rehab. It is a big deal, like having a heart attack, but not all people who suffer these things have long term damage. She had 3 episodes over the past year which may or may not have been transient ischemic attacks (TIAs) but certainly the husband didn’t describe them as such. Let’s say each one lasted around 20 minutes, and even though they sought medical attention, she wasn’t admitted to the hospital for them.

Getting on a crowded plane is a bit stressful, especially on December 21st, when the line for security was out of the airport door. Add to the fact that we sat around on the tarmac in San Diego before they started the A/C, and it got stuffy on the plane. Whether or not she is casual with her meds, this is a recipe for an event. Of course, there is no way to predict it will happen, especially if she has had ‘no’ symptoms since then (as the TIAs haven’t been recognized as such).

Life is a recipe for an event, edwino. I wouldn’t even consider forbidding a patient of mine to fly if they’d shown good recovery from a stroke and were on proper medications. Hell, it’s more likely that someone else on the flight will have an event, who never had a history of a stroke or heart attack, but is not on any meds and is running hypertensive as a result.

My advice to young medical professionals: Look for health, not disease. Too many docs insist on exhaustively running every test to try to explain a symptom. And run enough tests, and one will eventually get a complication, and cause some real disease on top of an unexplained (and generally benign) symptom.

And kanicbird? If a passenger has been told by a qualified doctor that they should not fly but do so anyway, and there is a problem as a result, only then should the victim of the medical condition be considered to have at least some liability. IMHO.

Oh, I don’t mean to imply that someone should have “grounded” her – I was going to add that I don’t think any MD would have prevented her from flying. The TIAs were checked out, she was not hospitalized before, there was no reason to expect anything.

Thanks for the advice, though. I start my internship in July (and I started medical school in 1997). There is this extreme disconnect in my mind between where I am now and what it means to be a doctor. After I’ve been back from grad school, I’ve had some experiences (my MICU month, my sub-internship, helping to run a fast-track treatment room at the Astroarena for people getting off buses from New Orleans, this flight thingy) that have shown me how much I need to learn. It is a lifelong process, but the only thing I seem to have gotten out of medical school is a Rumsfeldian I didn’t know what I didn’t know, now at least I know what I don’t know.

And I’m trying to decide between short track programs, which would prefer that I have a fellowship picked before I start… Yuck.

I’ve been in this situation a couple of times, edwino. And you did a good job just by stepping up and taking a history. I know quite a few doctors who I suspect would just not get involved. This is deplorable.

In any potential emergency, the proper course of action is evaluation in a hospital. You did not make the person sick. I’m sure most of the passengers understand this, and realize “this could have been me”. Good job. :slight_smile:

I do a lot of emergency. I’ve had people fall on the plane and dislocate their shoulders, which I have reduced using a seat belt and a glass of scotch. I’ve treated people for heart attacks and panic attacks on airplanes too.

On hearing your story, I agree with St. Urho that checking a sugar, if possible, would have been the first think I would have done after ABCs. It’s tough to see people after strokes since sometimes findings like diminished reflexes are due to previous infarctions. You don’t know, and can’t take the chance. It’s bad form to blame people for being “poor historians” (I know what yopu mean), people try their best and taking a good history is a skill even if the patient phrases things differently from how you’d like or doesn’t know the details you’d expect.

She was a victim of circumstance - something unpleasent occured to her, over which she had little or no control.

As already mentioned by the MDs, it’s a form of potassium. A quick search on Google lists stomach upset and/or nausea as possible side effects. If she was prone to those side effects she might have chosen to forgo the K-dur prior to boarding the airplane to avoid airsickness. Whether that would be a good move or not I’m not qualified to determine, but this may be a case where in trying to avoid one problem (airsickness is horribly unpleasent, vomiting is disturbing to other passengers, and it’s not good for your potassium and biochemical balance, either) she inadvertantly caused another. Or it may be that her skipping the K-dur is completely unrelated, or that she’s not even on K-dur but something else.

Both edwino and the airplane captain are not in a position to make such judgments. Their role is to deal with the emergency, based upon the information they have at hand at the time.

Unless you’re talking delibrate neglience - say, someone with uncontrolled epilepsy driving down a freeway after being specifically told they are forbidden to drive - I’d say the ill are off the hook. Although some of us are at higher risk for a particular condition than others, the fact is that we are ALL at some risk of sudden death or incapcitation.

Someone obviously ill or confused is going to be stopped by airline gate personnel prior to boarding. Beyond that, you can have people with horrific medical histories completing long flights with not a problem - as Qadgop pointed out, you’re probably more likely to have someone without a history of Bad Stuff collapsing in the aisle on a flight than someone with known medical history who is receiving appropriate treatment. One example that comes to mind is the pilot for Northwest Airlines who, a few years back, dropped dead while walking from the bathroom back to the cockpit. He’d just passed a physical less than a month before, and was in his 30’s. Stuff happens. Like I said, that’s why they have procedures in place to deal with emergencies. (It’s also one of the reasons they have two pilots on board, too - just in case something happens to one, you still have the other)

I don’t fly for the airlines, but even as a little-plane pilot I have to pay some attention to these things. As edwino pointed out, flying can be stressful. Some medication side effects can be worse at higher altitudes, or in a vehicle. In many ways, if a passenger becomes ill I’m in a worse position in that I can* not* stop flying the airplane to help them. If someone keels over in the back seat they can’t get CPR until we’re back on the ground, I don’t have a contract with medlink so I have to figure out the seriousness of the problem myself, and, oh yes, talk to ATC about landing with a medical emergency. Or given some of the places I’ve flown, I might have to turn on my cellphone and call for an ambulance myself.

You know, I asked the flight attendants if there was a glucometer in the kit. The answer was no. I asked the EMT if we should inquire amongst the passengers to see if anyone had a glucometer and testing strips, he didn’t think so. I regret not being more forceful about it, especially since the second thing the EMTs did upon getting on the plane was get a finger stick (it was 144).

I know that type II DM sometimes presents in HONK and type I DM often in DKA. Since after she improved she had focal neurologic findings (I know that doesn’t exclude electrolytes/glucose abnormalities), I moved away from that. Probably too quickly…

Again, you did fine, edwino. You can only do so much with the tools at hand, and you did what there was to do.

One thing about being in that sort of situation (and I’ve been in it before) is that if you do have to be the one to take charge, then really take charge. A medical crisis needs a leader, not a committee (not that you were in that situation, just for future reference). Ask for input and suggestions, but give directions. “Mr. EMT, see if any of the passengers have a glucometer. I want to know her blood sugar.” “Clinical assistant, keep a log of times, vital signs, and what the patient is doing. Update it every 5 minutes and when something changes.”

That’ll come easier after you’ve run a few codes during your residency. It’s not arrogance, it is appropriate assertiveness in a crisis. And it’s really cool, too. :cool:

I wasn’t being critical. You did a fine job. The reality of these situations is you don’t/didn’t have the tools to make a final diagnosis. Your differential diagnosis sounds spot on, and that’s really all you can do. I hope the airline did something for your help. :slight_smile:

If they do, let us know! In my experience, the only “reward” I ever got was an offer to take as many miniature bottles of booze that I wanted. :rolleyes:

I declined the booze, but asked for the whole can of Snap-E Tom spicy tomato juice instead of just a glass of it. :eek: