# Today I pit health food producers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024 "2009-08-28T14:13:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/41 "2009-08-28T20:14:28Z")
Well, yes, fresh produce is cheaper than potato chips. But boxed Macaroni cheese and Ramen noodles are the cheapest “food” out there. In general, if you are trying to fill bellies on a small income, you’re going to the “hamburger helper” type foods. And considering that poorer people generally work longer hours for their smaller paychecks, convenience does become important. I think there’s also a certain “comfort” to be gained through the higher carbohydrate foods which folks who experience the daily uncertainty and frustration of low income come to rely upon. And of course, if you’re headed to the charity pantry, you’re going to be basing your meals on canned goods. Poor folks also tend not to have the same utensils and equipment. So a crock pot, for instance, which could make cheap beef and potatoes into a filling stew of yumminess is not an option. and in order to really benefit from that you’d need tupperware-type containers in which to freeze the leftovers for future meals. That’s assuming that you have a freezer, and can rely upon the electricity being on until you use it. I think free kitchen equipment and cook books could help. But it’s just true that we need to find a way to make healthy living more convenient, or make low-paying jobs 9-5. ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/42 "2009-08-28T20:29:47Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I think free kitchen equipment and cook books could help. But it’s just true that **we need to find a way to make healthy living more convenient** , or make low-paying jobs 9-5. I think this is the biggest problem. If healthy foods didn’t require so much prep and didn’t go bad so fast I think they would be a lot more popular. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/43 "2009-08-28T22:14:08Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > It should be pointed out that fish isn’t all that cheap, though. And it doesn’t keep for long. > [@pbbth](#): > > My biggest problem is that healthy food doesn’t have much of a shelf life. Right. But that’s not exactly the fault of the food itself, nor even of the people who produce it. It’s the fault of a society where people are too busy to shop every day, and where local grocery stores have often been driven out of business by chain supermarkets, making it more likely that people will make one huge shopping trip per week in the car rather than multiple small trips. My wife and i like to do one large shop every week or so for non-perishables and for perishable items that have a decent shelf-life in the fridge or freezer (milk, cheese, eggs, tofu, meat). For our fruit and veges, though, we tend to make three or four trips a week, often just to the small independent supermarket across the street. I can go there, buy some veges, and be back in our place in literally 5 minutes. This is one of the reasons we choose to live in the area where we live. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/44 "2009-08-30T22:26:13Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Organic produce vs it’s “less healthy” counterpart that contains stuff to make it keep longer There is nothing magically “healthier” about organic produce. The only thing it will make skinnier is your wallet. Healthy food is not expensive. Here are some items from my recent grocery bill: Tomatoes: $1.69 a pound Romaine Lettuce: $1.99 a head (that’s enough for like a dozen sammiches) Pre-chopped broccoli: $3.99 a pound Black beans: $0.89 a can Ground turkey: $3.99 a pound (exact same price as 90% lean ground beef, BTW) Grapefruits: $1.49 each Bananas: $0.69 a pound (!!!) Pre-cut celery and baby carrots: $3.99 a pound Multi-grain bread: $3.89 a loaf And on and on and on. I also just got a dozen cans of solid white albacore on sale for a buck each. It’s already cooked and it lasts forever. I’ve got enough stuff there to feed me completely for a couple weeks while maintaining my calorie restriction, for the price of a couple days worth of Whoppers and fries. Yes, making a tuna sandwich and peeling a banana is more time consuming than ordering fast food or going to a restaurant with obscenely absurd portions, but it’s really not all that much work. And if you can’t be assed to do that much work, microwave a fucking Lean Pocket. (3.49 for two!) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/45 "2009-08-30T22:35:02Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Because the healthy food producers don’t have a strong lobby? Oh puh-leeze. Who do you think these people are who produce healthy food? Magical impoverished food elves who can’t afford bigshot Washington lobbyists? Healthy food is produced, distributed, and sold by all the same people who make Bon-Bons, deep fried pizza and corndogs wrapped in a pancake. If you can’t acquire good food it’s because you’re lazy and want super-processed crap which has a long shelf-life, or because you just want the delicious high-fat snackies because they taste good and you want that instead of spinach. I’m not blaming anyone so inclined; I can relate. It’s taken me years to change my relationship with foods and portions. But I did the work, all without the “motivation” of a sin tax (which we can see has been quite successful with tobacco :rolleyes: ) or subsidies for some government-defined taxonomy of “healthy” food. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/46 "2009-08-30T23:54:23Z")
I run into that problem with food going bad before I can eat it all the time. The vast _vast_ majority of my food is refrigerated, with some veggies and some meats frozen. I do have a market about a block from me, but they have limited fresh foods other than a great butcher shop. This time of year they do have spectacular local heirloom tomatoes, but… I can’t really eat tomatoes any longer. _sob_ ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/47 "2009-08-31T00:32:18Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Maybe I should have specified “health food” as “food that is healthier than it’s unhealthy counterpart” > > Just in general, making meals is usually more healthy than eating out. But even making meals gets more costly when you try to make things low in fat etc > > The 80/20 ground beef is less expensive than its 95/5 counterpart. The “heart healthy” chips or butter is more expensive than it’s counterpart. > > Organic produce vs it’s “less healthy” counterpart that contains stuff to make it keep longer What on earth is “heart healthy” butter? Butter is butter. Sounds like you are trying to eat “healthier” by buying stuff that says “healthy” on the package rather than learning about proper nutrition and cooking. If you’re concerned about butter, then don’t buy some sort of weird concoction. Learn to cook things that don’t rely on butter. And if you need the flavor for something, learn to use it in such a way as to maximize the flavor impact. “Healthier” versions of processed crap are indeed more expensive than the regular versions of the same crap. Food that is actually good for you isn’t. > [@Kearsen](#): > > If it wasn’t cheaper to eat like shit, no one would eat shit. Not true. People like to eat processed food because it contains salt, sugar, fat, flavor enhancers, artificial flavors and colors, etc. The recipes have been created in food labs by experts who know what factors make people want to eat a food. Even the “mouth feel” of the food is a deliberate decision. Modern processed foods are engineered to be appealing to our palates. People eat that shit because it tastes and looks and feels good to them. If the processors can fool you into thinking it’s “cheap,” then so much the better. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/48 "2009-08-31T01:09:46Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > It is the same thing with most fruits and vegetables, really. Celery lasts for a long time and so does citrus fruit but other than that if I buy vegetables or fruit I have to expect to throw half of it out after I find it rotting in my fridge 4 days later. Triscuits can sit on the shelf for a month and still be just as good as when I bought them. If I only have 1 day a week to go shopping I have to take into account what will stay good and what won’t when I am planning my menus for the week. Buy frozen vegees. DON’T buy a _mix_ of frozen vegees, or some pre-seasoned bag of stuff like “Oriental Flavored Stir Fry Medley!!!”. Buy bags of basic vegees like frozen carrots, peas, broccoli, etc. Take out just what you plan to eat from the bags. Reheat in microwave, or cook in various dishes. Works as good as fresh, but keeps a lot longer. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/49 "2009-08-31T01:20:07Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > There is nothing magically “healthier” about organic produce. The only thing it will make skinnier is your wallet. > > Healthy food is not expensive. I’m a little agog at some of your prices. I’m going to suggest a few ways to bring down the cost, in case anyone else here is living on the same restricted budget as I am. > [@](#): > > Romaine Lettuce: $1.99 a head (that’s enough for like a dozen sammiches) I discovered this year that lettuce is ridiculously easy to grow. I got 3 dozen heads out of a $1.69 packet of seeds. > [@](#): > > Pre-chopped broccoli: $3.99 a pound :eek: I’d buy it either non-pre-chopped or a bag of frozen chopped - under $2 for the frozen where I live. > [@](#): > > Pre-cut celery and baby carrots: $3.99 a pound Good lord - you realize that the non-pre-cut is MUCH cheaper? No one makes carrot sticks anymore? I understand my husband not doing that, as he is disabled and his manual dexterity is impaired, but most of us could managed to cut these ourselves in just a few minutes. > [@](#): > > Multi-grain bread: $3.89 a loaf Outlet thrift store - day old bread in multi-grain, rye, pumpernickel, etc. for $2.58 for two loaves, or $1.29 each. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/50 "2009-08-31T01:48:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Buy frozen vegees. > > DON’T buy a _mix_ of frozen vegees, or some pre-seasoned bag of stuff like “Oriental Flavored Stir Fry Medley!!!”. Buy bags of basic vegees like frozen carrots, peas, broccoli, etc. Take out just what you plan to eat from the bags. Reheat in microwave, or cook in various dishes. Works as good as fresh, but keeps a lot longer. I disagree when it comes to carrots. Carrots last a long time in the fridge, and frozen carrots have a weird consistency. Peas and broccoli and cauliflower and beans are great frozen. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/51 "2009-08-31T02:10:09Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > But those things ARE shit. If you’re concerned about the poor eating healthy, well… they should be encouraged (like everyone else) to eat things that are actually GOOD for them, which also happen to be affordable. There’s this phenomenon in poor neighborhoods called “food deserts.” There’s a wikipedia entry on it if you’re wondering. The deal is, in these neighborhoods, it’s impossible to get healthy food, like fresh produce. These neighborhoods are inundated with fast food joints, bars/liquor stores, and convenience stores, but no real grocery stores with reasonably priced items so people can make fresh, home cooked means with healthy foods. This is the real problem with just telling poor people to eat healthy. If they have to make 2 bus trips, or take an expensive cab, laden with grocery bags, that is a real deterrent to eating healthy, esp. when Burger King has a 99 cent value menu across the street. This is a public policy issue, not so much one of pricing per se, but it does provide an explanation of why poor people tend to be obese, have diabetes, etc., even though they have less money for food. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/52 "2009-08-31T02:26:20Z")
Another thing to consider is the time factor. A lot of the working poor work more than the nice 9-5 job. If they have a salary position, they’re often expected to work 60-80 hours a week, and if they don’t, they may be scrambling for as many hours as possible to make ends meet. If you have that kind of work schedule, making tomato sauce from scratch or taking the time to chop and simmer and season, etc., can be taking time out of things like sleep. Eating healthy is easy if you have an hour to cook and eat every night. That’s with an estimate of 25 minutes of cooking time, 15 minutes of eating, and the remainder the clean up. If you don’t have that hour, then the tomato is going to rot on the shelf, because you don’t have the time to chop, cook, and season it into a nice tomato sauce. It takes five minutes to walk across the street to McD’s and grab a $1 cheeseburger and $1 fries. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/53 "2009-08-31T02:34:59Z")
One of my favorite blogs [www.cheaphealthygood.com](http://www.cheaphealthygood.com) ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/54 "2009-08-31T03:02:43Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Here are some items from my recent grocery bill: > > Tomatoes: $1.69 a pound > Romaine Lettuce: $1.99 a head (that’s enough for like a dozen sammiches) > Pre-chopped broccoli: $3.99 a pound > Black beans: $0.89 a can > Ground turkey: $3.99 a pound (exact same price as 90% lean ground beef, BTW) > Grapefruits: $1.49 each > Bananas: $0.69 a pound (!!!) > Pre-cut celery and baby carrots: $3.99 a pound > Multi-grain bread: $3.89 a loaf > > And on and on and on. Do you honestly think this is what most poor people pay for groceries? Poor people where I live are buying the ramen noodles (10 for $1 on sale), generic mac and cheese for 25 cents, and 99 cent loaves of bread. It is much, much cheaper to eat peanut butter sandwiches on white bread than a tuna and romaine sandwich on multi-grain bread that’s nearly $4 a loaf. Hell, I won’t even pay that much for bread on a regular basis; I stick to buying a few 100% whole wheat loaves on sale and freezing them. Something that’s twice as much money adds up fast in a family of 5 or 6. Don’t get me wrong. There are ways to eat healthier on a budget than existing on junk food. Bananas, dried beans, tinned tomatoes, canned tuna… these are indeed less expensive options. However, if you are barely getting by and you are shopping for the cheapest food you can manage to get full with, it’s more than likely going to be processed and full of carbs. That’s a fact. Further, time is money, and healthy food requires more prep time. I know it’s easy to dismiss people as lazy, but there are people out there working two jobs and trying to raise their kids on practically nothing, and they often don’t have the time (or the kitchen resources) to cook for hours. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/55 "2009-08-31T05:21:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Good lord - you realize that the non-pre-cut is MUCH cheaper? No one makes carrot sticks anymore? I understand my husband not doing that, as he is disabled and his manual dexterity is impaired, but most of us could managed to cut these ourselves in just a few minutes. No shit, Sherlock. I like to pay a little extra for the convenience of not having to peel/chop vegetables. I don’t have time for that nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/56 "2009-08-31T07:08:50Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > What on earth is “heart healthy” butter? Butter is butter. There is no “heart healthy” butter. I think he’s referring to margarine blended of the oils containing plant sterols (canola seed, olive, fish, soybean, and flaxseed). Although, I will admit the jury is still out on whether these cholesterol reducing phytosterols are actually beneficial in reducing the risk of cardiac events, I can’t imagine they do even as much or more harm than butter does. For those of us with high cholesterol, however, butter is a distinct no-no. Smart Balance is my spread of choice when I do eat something I used to eat with butter (such as corn on the cob or a multigrain muffin). Oh, that reminds me, I pay a premium for fruit spread that doesn’t have high fructose corn syrup or artificial sweetener. That kind of ticks me off, actually. Yes, there are expensive substitutes for things we used to enjoy eating, where even moderation is not advised. It doesn’t mean that _all_ healthy food is expensive, but some of these alternatives are, in fact, very pricey. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/57 "2009-08-31T07:21:36Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > No shit, Sherlock. > > I like to pay a little extra for the convenience of not having to peel/chop vegetables. I don’t have time for that nonsense. Right, but isn’t that precisely one of the points of this thread? That convenience costs money. You said “Healthy food is not expensive,” and then listed pre-cut celery and carrots as an example. But 4 bucks a pound for celery and carrots IS expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/58 "2009-08-31T13:30:48Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > For those of us with high cholesterol, however, butter is a distinct no-no. Smart Balance is my spread of choice when I do eat something I used to eat with butter (such as corn on the cob or a multigrain muffin). That may be, but this thread seems to be more about general “healthy eating” than dietary modifications needed for specific health problems. If a person is generally trying to eat healthier, eating a muffin with a huge glob of Smart Balance Buttery Spread instead of butter isn’t going to help as much as finding something to eat that doesn’t require a huge glob of something buttery. There are a lot of very good points here about how difficult it can be for low-income people to cook healthy food. Another issue may be pressure from peers and family. It can be hard to maintain a different food-style than those around you, especially if you live in close proximity. Regarding **friedo** ’s examples–we’re not only talking about the truly poor here. Yes, his specific grocery list costs more than many people can afford, but that doesn’t invalidate his point–that healthy food isn’t necessarily more expensive even when looking at convenience food. p.s. 3 handy carrot tips–buy the package with thinner carrots. They taste better when eaten raw. Get a peeler that’s shaped like [this](http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/update-international/egu-8/p7230.aspx) instead of [this.](http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/alegacy/3k/p374802.aspx) It makes things a lot easier. And try the organic carrots. I find that they taste better, the packages tend to have thinner carrots, and the price difference is small. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/59 "2009-08-31T14:06:03Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Why is eating healthy so damn expensive? Don’t the producers of this food know that there is a dynamic thriving epidemic of diabetes of the 2nd type ravaging this great country? So, they should offer their expensive food cheaper and take a chance on going out of business? If they manage to sell their product at a certain price why should they sell it at a lower one just to make you happy? > [@](#): > > He needs to tax the ever loving shit out of “fast food” producers that poison the general populace on a daily basis. Hell, that would probably give him enough money for health care reform if we could ever decide what needs doing. No one is shoveling ‘fast food’ into people’s faces. They manage to do that all on their own. I can guarantee that the day someone makes broccoli taste like a Big Mac or chocolate, then people will eat healthier. But, I can also guarantee that at that point some busybody will start complaining about how people are having bowel obstructions due to all the broccoli fiber people are eating and that we should penalize the broccoli industry for not making a lower fiber version. > [@](#): > > Bottom line is, eating healthy shouldn’t be nigh impossible for the majority of Americans. It isn’t impossible, nor is it expensive. Nor is it the fault of the ‘fast food’ industry. They just cater to their market. You don’t have to shop in that market if it bothers you so much. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024/60 "2009-08-31T14:42:03Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No one is shoveling ‘fast food’ into people’s faces. They manage to do that all on their own. > > … > > It isn’t impossible, nor is it expensive. Nor is it the fault of the ‘fast food’ industry. They just cater to their market. You don’t have to shop in that market if it bothers you so much. This is not as black and white as you might think. See my post above about food deserts. In some neighborhoods, there are no grocery stores and nowhere to buy fresh produce and other healthy foods. However, there is easy access to convenience foods and fast food, so that’s what people eat. This is not an issue for people with cars, or people in middle class or better neighborhoods. It is a problem in low-income neighborhoods, and rural communities were transportation is problematic for a lot of people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-i-pit-health-food-producers/508024.md?page=4)