# Today is a Great Day: Kenneth Lay to be Indicted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034 "2004-07-07T23:20:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/21 "2004-07-08T13:45:08Z")
Ah, the poor simple folk of the SDMB…have we forgotten so soon the mighty Presidential Pardon system? Kenny goes to his white collar jail, George will free him when the time comes. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/22 "2004-07-08T13:54:41Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Ah, the poor simple folk of the SDMB…have we forgotten so soon the mighty Presidential Pardon system? Kenny goes to his white collar jail, George will free him when the time comes. I will bet you $100 that this does not happen. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/23 "2004-07-08T13:55:07Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > …the standard is reasonable doubt, even for Ken Lay… Did I wake up and find myself mysteriously transported out of The Pit? What’s with all this due process talk? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/24 "2004-07-08T14:37:14Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > I will bet you $100 that this does not happen. Seriously. A man who’s willing to lie about WMDs to start a war will not have any hesitation in pardoning Ken Lay. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/25 "2004-07-08T14:44:37Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > He’s already close to being there. I read an article awhile back that said Lay’s net worth had dropped from several hundred million to a few million, and that when you strip away money set aside for lawyer’s fees and the like, he’s worth less than a million. That’s a long drop, and not a lot of money when you think about it – less than a lot of workaday middle-class white-collar types have set aside when they retire. Well, I’d sort of be shocked if none of those missing hundred million got put offshore or transferred to obliging relatives. It’s not like the guy didn’t have a lot of chance to squirrel away a few funds for a rainy day. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/26 "2004-07-08T15:18:24Z")
I don’t know Lay could have avoided it, after the Enron [tapes](http://www.wa-grange.org/grangenews_archive/Story2.htm) became public. Even if the story did get buried by Ronald Reagan, someone must have been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/27 "2004-07-08T15:30:14Z")
The man is a thief. He is no better than a street thug who throws a rock through a car window and steals the stereo. But in that case, he would have tried, convicted, sentenced, and served out his entire time behind bars by now. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/28 "2004-07-08T15:48:51Z")
Oooooo, wire fraud. There could be hundreds of counts…heheheh ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/29 "2004-07-08T16:10:51Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > I will bet you $100 that this does not happen. Seriously. Since I said it first, I’ll take that bet. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/30 "2004-07-08T16:14:33Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Since I said it first, I’ll take that bet. No shit. If Clinton could pardon Marc Rich, despite the shitstorm it created, Lay will be a piece of cake. Clinton, by the way, now is having second thoughts about doing that. Too late, dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/31 "2004-07-08T16:15:37Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > A man who’s willing to lie about WMDs to start a war will not have any hesitation in pardoning Ken Lay. So can I put you down for $100 or not? Put your money where your mouth is. > [@Finagle](#): > > Well, I’d sort of be shocked if none of those missing hundred million got put offshore or transferred to obliging relatives. It’s not like the guy didn’t have a lot of chance to squirrel away a few funds for a rainy day. Do you really think Lay’s wealth was kept in a big vault, and that he swam around in it like Uncle Scrooge? Like most wealthy people, very little of his wealth was in the form of cash. Most of Lay’s wealth was tied up in Enron stock, which is of course now totally worthless. And according to the article, he’s been having to liquidate his other stock holdings and other assets to pay both his ordinary expenses and his mounting legal costs. IIRC, he’s sold all but one of his homes. And those expenses will only continue to increase. I’m not suggesting that anyone cry for poor ol’ Kenny boy – his demise was his own doing – but even in the highly unlikely scenario of Lay being acquitted, he’s hardly going to be a member of the superwealthy anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/32 "2004-07-08T16:19:53Z")
**Stuffy** is on. Am I putting you down, too **Chefguy**? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/33 "2004-07-08T16:31:04Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > **Stuffy** is on. Am I putting you down, too **Chefguy**? Cool, nice to see someone giving away free money, lay out your terms. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/34 "2004-07-08T16:36:00Z")
That _someone_ is **Dewey**. W is a bonehead but he’s not evil incarnate. No way, especially after the crap Clinton caught, is George going to pardon Ken. I think most of these allegations of suckbuddydom between the two are politically motivated. You really think he’s going to put his ass out on a limb for a criminal that screwed so many retirees? Shit, I doubt Michael Moore would assert he’d pardon Lay. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/35 "2004-07-08T16:37:53Z")
How did I fuck that up that bad? **Dewey’s** making the easy money. He wins this one. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/36 "2004-07-08T17:53:33Z")
Bush has everything to lose, and nothing to gain from being Lay’s friend any longer. Politically, pardoning Lay is suicidal. Even if, like most ex-presidents, Bush has no further political aspirations beyond his term or terms (besides the usual cheerleading role at conventions, etc.), he most certainly would have business aspirations. Lay and his ilk are now corporate kryptonite, at least in the world of publically traded companies. Bringing an Enron pardoner into your board would be quite unpopular with investors, I’m thinking. Nope, Lay is out. Skillings is out. The Fastows are beyond out. Boy, there’s a group photo I’d love to throw darts at. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/37 "2004-07-08T18:21:40Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > Like most wealthy people, very little of his wealth was in the form of cash. Irrelevant as long as it’s liquid and accessible, except to John Law. > [@](#): > > Most of Lay’s wealth was tied up in Enron stock, which is of course now totally worthless. Whoa, doggy. Wasn’t part of the scandal the fact that the management was allowed to sell their Enron stock during the collapse, while the employees weren’t? You think he didn’t? > [@](#): > > And according to the article, he’s been having to liquidate his other stock holdings and other assets to pay both his ordinary expenses and his mounting legal costs. IIRC, he’s sold all but one of his homes. And those expenses will only continue to increase. Crimea River, Kenny Boy. Down to his last house, is he? How many innocent Enron employees would like to be in that situation? It’s amazing how fast the Milkens etc. of the world have bounced back after their own releases, itoo. What’s different this time? ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/38 "2004-07-08T18:57:50Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > Do you really think Lay’s wealth was kept in a big vault, and that he swam around in it like Uncle Scrooge? Like most wealthy people, very little of his wealth was in the form of cash. > : : : > I’m not suggesting that anyone cry for poor ol’ Kenny boy – his demise was his own doing – but even in the highly unlikely scenario of Lay being acquitted, he’s hardly going to be a member of the superwealthy anymore. You’re underestimating Kenny. For example, a simple Google search turned up evidence of a [large family planning trust](http://www.usatoday.com/money/energy/2002-01-30-lay-assets.htm) that will guarantee him an annuity of 900K/year starting in 2007. That’s not a bad piece of change, and because it’s an annuity, it’s protected under Texas law from creditors (unless it can be proven that the money was fraudulently obtained.) I think it’s unlikely that this is the only rainy day money that the Lays have stashed away. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/39 "2004-07-08T20:16:46Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Cool, nice to see someone giving away free money, lay out your terms. I’m happy to take your cash. I’d think terms are self-explanatory. On the day after Bush’s last in office, if he hasn’t issued a pardon for Ken Lay, I win. If he issues such a pardon, you win. Method of payment to be decided later. You’ve just given me a good reason to root for John Kerry, BTW: I can collect my money four years sooner. Shit, if I can round up enough tinfoil hat Bush-haters, I might be able to retire early. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/40 "2004-07-08T20:51:06Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > For example, a simple Google search turned up evidence of a [large family planning trust](http://www.usatoday.com/money/energy/2002-01-30-lay-assets.htm) that will guarantee him an annuity of 900K/year starting in 2007. Perhaps I’m just missing it, but I’ve been up and down that article a couple of times now and I don’t see anything about a family planning trust. I also note that that article is from January 2002, shortly after the collapse, and thus would not reflect Lay’s financial status today. I also question your assertion that such an annuity would be exempt from seizure under Texas law. [Here are](http://www.lawdog.com/states/tx/st1b.htm) the Texas bankruptcy exemptions, including annuities described in Property Code 42.0021. [Here is](http://www.lawdog.com/states/tx/sta9.htm) the Texas Property Code. Under the Property Code, an annuity must qualify under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to be exempt from seizure. The IRC imposes caps on such tax-exempt retirement planning strategies – your 401(k) has a max contribution of around $11,000 per year, for instance – and I suspect that such annuities are subject to similar caps. No way can he shield that much cash from the bankruptcy court. (He _can_ shield a shitload of value in his primary residence, for which the exemption is unlimited in Texas). BTW, [here is the article](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/enron/2649271) that is, in party, about Lay’s changes in net worth. Granted, the figures are coming from Lay, but the Chronicle article doesn’t seem to find the assertions questionable. I can hunt down the article about his houses if you like. Again, I’m not suggesting you cry for Lay. He dug his own grave, and he’s still doing pretty well by any standard of measurement. He just isn’t superrich anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034.md?page=3)