# Today is a Great Day: Kenneth Lay to be Indicted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034 "2004-07-07T23:20:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/41 "2004-07-08T21:00:08Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > I’m happy to take your cash. I’d think terms are self-explanatory. On the day after Bush’s last in office, if he hasn’t issued a pardon for Ken Lay, I win. If he issues such a pardon, you win. Method of payment to be decided later. > > You’ve just given me a good reason to root for John Kerry, BTW: I can collect my money four years sooner. > > Shit, if I can round up enough tinfoil hat Bush-haters, I might be able to retire early. Sounds good. Now maybe I can find a few more naive suckers, my Christmas shopping will be that much easier this year. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/42 "2004-07-08T21:11:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Whoa, doggy. Wasn’t part of the scandal the fact that the management was allowed to sell their Enron stock during the collapse, while the employees weren’t? You think he didn’t? I’m sure he sold on the way down – indeed, I’ve read articles indicating that during the collapse Lay was subject to multiple margin calls, meaning he _had_ to sell. I also note that this employee lock-in thing gets talked about as though it is broader than it actually was. My understanding is that employee contributions to retirement plans could be matched with Enron stock, and it was only that matching stock that was restricted from sale. The portion of each employee’s contribution could be sold freely. Indeed, I have little sympathy for the executives (who should be more saavy than secretaries and the like) who were foolish enough to not have diversified their retirement portfolios – their contributions should have been immediately sold and reinvested in other vehicles every time they made a contribution to their retirement accounts, leaving only the employer match wholly invested in Enron stock. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Crimea River, Kenny Boy. Down to his last house, is he? How many innocent Enron employees would like to be in that situation? Again, I feel no sympathy for Lay, who is responsible for his own situation. Indeed, I’m more than a bit angry at the whole Enron debacle, seeing how it in part contributed to my own employment woes. That doesn’t mean we can’t cooly dissect the case or calmly discuss Lay’s actual financial situation. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s amazing how fast the Milkens etc. of the world have bounced back after their own releases, itoo. What’s different this time? Actually, Milken’s a saint compared to Lay. Milken, at worst, only hurt investors in the most abstract way, and has in any event more than paid for his crime. Even the guy who prosecuted him – one [Rudolph Giuliani](http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0105/27/lklw.00.html) – wants to see him pardoned. In my view, Clinton’s real sin in the pardoning process wasn’t pardoning Marc Rich, but rather his declining to pardon Milken. ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/43 "2004-07-08T21:21:02Z")
The Smoking Gun has some nice [correspondence](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html) between GWB and Kenny-Boy Lay. The guy GWB might have seen at some meeting or other. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/44 "2004-07-08T22:28:14Z")
BTW, **Finagle** , I think [I found the article](http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2002/02/enron_insure.html) you meant to link to earlier regarding Lay’s trust planning. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/45 "2004-07-08T22:57:43Z")
And after further Googling, **Finagle** , I see that I was totally wrong in my earlier post – I was looking in the Property Code when I should have been looking in the Insurance Code. [Here is the relevant section](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/IN/content/htm/in.007.00.001108.00.htm#1108.002.00). Annuities such as you describe are indeed wholly insulated in bankruptcy in the state of Texas. Color me surprised. [Another good page](http://www.assetprotectionbook.com/texas.htm) dealing with Texas asset protection. Interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/46 "2004-07-08T23:16:28Z")
> [@5que](#): > > The Smoking Gun has some nice [correspondence](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html) between GWB and Kenny-Boy Lay. The guy GWB might have seen at some meeting or other. In a letter of roughly 60 words, “friend” (or variant) is used 4 times. “Old” (or variant) is also used 4 times. Subtract the proper nouns, common conjunctions, and thoroughly pedestrian articles, and there’s hardly anything left. I’ve had conversations with people who were stoned out of their minds on weed in which more extensive vocabulary was utilized in less space. Wow! That is really, uh… ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/47 "2004-07-09T06:30:11Z")
I am looking forward to lay’s trial…I think his testimony (about how the corrupt ENRON corporation did business) will shock most people. Basically, they manipulayed the energy market…and about the same time politicians were pushing “energy deregulation”! What this meant: ENRON could buy up contracts for electric power very cheaply, then panic utilities into repurchasing power from them at a HUGE markup! This explains why my electric bill went UP 56% after electric power was “deregulated” in Massachusetts! These goddam thieves (ENRON) profited enormously from this rigged market…and all of the politicians who told us that “deregulation” would lower our electric rates! Seems to me a few US congressmen should be indicted as well…a friend of mine (who lives in a local town that has its own town-owned generating plant) saw his bill DROP in the same period…not only that, but he got a DIVIDEND as well! Goddam thieves ought to be shot! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/48 "2004-07-09T07:44:54Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > Do you really think Lay’s wealth was kept in a big vault, and that he swam around in it like Uncle Scrooge? I thought they kept it in big bags with dollar signs printed on the outside. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/49 "2004-07-09T16:38:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I am looking forward to lay’s trial…I think his testimony (about how the corrupt ENRON corporation did business) will shock most people. Prepare yourself for disappointment. I seriously doubt that Lay’s attorneys will have him take the witness stand. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/50 "2004-07-09T16:49:49Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I am looking forward to lay’s trial…I think his testimony (about how the corrupt ENRON corporation did business) will shock most people. Prepare yourself for disappointment. I seriously doubt that Lay’s attorneys will have him take the witness stand. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/51 "2004-07-10T19:39:37Z")
Heh. If they can keep him off the stand. Not only did he have an impromptu press conference after his indictment (my computer’s too wonky right now to get the Bloomberg story about how stupid that was, but his lawyer said something to the effect of ‘I’ve never seen it before and I don’t wanna do it now, but he really wants to get his story out.’), he got chatty with cellmates during processing and [had a sit-down interview with the Houston Chronicle](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/2672127). Maybe he’s trying to make his lawyers believe their own story when they try to convince the jury that he’s a dumbass who didn’t understand what was going on?[sup]1[/sup] 😉 [sup]1[/sup]: Probably not. More likely, he’s convinced that the case against him has been so publicized and he so demonized that he can’t possibly make things worse. He’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/52 "2004-07-10T21:50:05Z")
I still wager against. Taking the stand requires that Lay submit to the unpleasantry of cross-examination by the prosecution. And unlike media interviews, he can’t call off the questioning if they don’t throw softballs. His media appearances are probably dumb, but facing off with U.S. Attorneys is even dumber. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/53 "2004-07-10T22:13:40Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Maybe he’s trying to make his lawyers believe their own story when they try to convince the jury that he’s a dumbass who didn’t understand what was going on. > > Probably not. More likely, he’s convinced that the case against him has been so publicized and he so demonized that he can’t possibly make things worse. He’s wrong. Or he really does have, or thinks he has, reason to believe he’s going to be pardoned, or at least have a soft plea-bargain in the works? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/54 "2004-07-10T23:47:51Z")
It’s simple: The man’s an egomaniacal fuckwad. He seems to believe that somehow speaking to the public, giving his side of the story, will make them come around; it will make them see that, you know, it’s all been a big misunderstanding, he was completely out of the loop, loves Houston, feels simply _horribly_ about the poor Enron empolyees whose finances were ruined, etc. What a fucking bastard. I’m convinced the guy is a sociopath. How can anyone pretend to be sorry, and speak such self-serving dishonest rubbish in front of millions of his fellow citizens, and yet seem to be so confident, so unpurturbed, so _sincere_? Really, has this man no remorse whatsoever? I suppose he’s hoping John Q. Public is dimwitted, gullible, and ready to dole out Christian forgivenesss to man who’s only crime is ignorance. Who knows, maybe he’s making a good bet. I hope not, though. I hope he just poisons the jury pool more with his transparent duplicity. C’mon Texas: This man needs to spend the rest of his sorry-ass life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/55 "2004-07-11T00:20:47Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > Prepare yourself for disappointment. I seriously doubt that Lay’s attorneys will have him take the witness stand. Is it likely that civil suits will be forthcoming against Lay, Fastow and/or Skilling? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/56 "2004-07-17T17:17:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or he really does have, or thinks he has, reason to believe he’s going to be pardoned… So can I put you down for $100? > [@bnorton](#): > > Is it likely that civil suits will be forthcoming against Lay, Fastow and/or Skilling? It’s possible, although given the generous nature of Texas law regarding the protection of an indvidual’s assets, such suits may not be economically worth pursuing. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034/57 "2004-07-17T17:28:08Z")
> [@Dewey Cheatem Undhow](#): > > It’s possible, although given the generous nature of Texas law regarding the protection of an indvidual’s assets, such suits may not be economically worth pursuing. Just thought that should be highlighted. I don’t (at this point) think that Bush would be stupid enough to pardon Lay. If I end up being wrong, do, though, allow me to cackle w/glee uncontrollably, won’t you? (and I also agree that Lay won’t take the stand. IIRC, it is legally up to the client - however I think they’d be able to convince him that it would not be in his best interest to do so. Low ball questions vs. hardball etc.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/today-is-a-great-day-kenneth-lay-to-be-indicted/254034.md?page=2)