# Today's Bible Lesson: "You Reap What You Sow." **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 19, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112 "2020-05-19T14:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/21 "2020-05-19T18:40:12Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > This seems to please the OP, I also notice you fail to mention other churches which have opened yet not had a similar situation occur. > > This is the problem when you cherry pick examples. This is a valid rebuttal only if you are claiming that there is _no causal connection_ between large groups of people gathering together in close proximity and the spread of contagious disease. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/22 "2020-05-19T18:47:40Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > …far more troubling notion is that someone would jump straight from correlation to causation here… I’ll grant that if there are reports that the church services were conducted under rigorous social distancing protocols, perhaps less harsh judgment is warranted. But it’s hardly a “jump” to suggest that there’s a causal connection between gathering in large groups and the spread of contagious disease. Whether or not the spread occurred at the church or at the supermarket, the church services increase the risk. Just as with cancer we can often not say definitively that one specific thing caused it, it’s a question of risk factors. If large numbers of people start going back to mass religious services, that additional risk factor will cause harm, even if we can’t pin down the causal chain in any specific instance. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/23 "2020-05-19T19:09:46Z")
> [@SayTwo](#): > > Wow. Where to start. First off, the article says that 75% of its congregation didn’t attend in person when they reopened. And it doesn’t say anything about whether the infected families were part of the 25 percent or the 75. So, there’s that, as a starting point. But the far, far more troubling notion is that someone would jump straight from correlation to causation here. if there’s one thing I’d guess about families that attend a smallish church in a smallish town, which I’m assuming is what we’re talking about here, it’s that their lives are likely in some way intertwined. Like, maybe their kids play together, They are not supposed to be doing that. > [@](#): > > maybe they get together for cards on Saturday night, They are not supposed to be doing that. > [@](#): > > watch sports together on Sunday, What sports? Oh, and they are not supposed to be doing that. > [@](#): > > that kind of thing. Hell, maybe they are even family. Don’t cousins in Georgia often marry? Or maybe they work together at the same factory, or meat packing plant. > > Point is, there’s no way to tell from this article how the families got infected. The article also says the church did the whole social distancing thing in what sounds like a pretty rigorous way. I guess one might be of the point of view that even careful social distancing protocols and 75% reductions in capacity still don’t make gatherings like this acceptable, and I do agree with the sentiment that it’s attitudes like those that are doing more to harm right now than to help. What we can take from the article is that people who were infected with the virus went to church and exposed others. How many got infected by attending services vs going to the Satruday night card game is not relevant, what is relevant is that people with the virus came in contact with a large group of people that did not. > [@](#): > > And yes, I agree completely with **Carryon** that if this is thought to be ‘right on schedule’ then we should line up the other in-person services from the same weekend, the ones that didn’t make the paper because their familes aren’t sick, and put them in the other column. For that to make sens,e you’d have to think that something about the church itself is causing the virus to spread. There is a pretty decent chance that if you go to church, that no one in attendance has it. If no one has it, then there is nothing to be spread. If anyone has it, then it can spread to all those they come into contact with. > [@](#): > > You know, to be fair and all. And then let’s see whose right about how reckless, or not, it really is. Talk about bias though, you ever notice that the media only talks about the accidents, and never covers all the drunk drivers that made it home safely? ---
**Author:** ![SayTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@SayTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SayTwo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/24 "2020-05-20T02:10:42Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’ll grant that if there are reports that the church services were conducted under rigorous social distancing protocols, perhaps less harsh judgment is warranted. But it’s hardly a “jump” to suggest that there’s a causal connection between gathering in large groups and the spread of contagious disease. Whether or not the spread occurred at the church or at the supermarket, the church services increase the risk. Just as with cancer we can often not say definitively that one specific thing caused it, it’s a question of risk factors. If large numbers of people start going back to mass religious services, that additional risk factor will cause harm, even if we can’t pin down the causal chain in any specific instance. The implication, it seems to me, is that the church service resulted in a (pretty efficient, you may even say) spread that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Not there is some small risk that it did, but that it did. It’s the kind of thinking that doesn’t appreciate, as I heard it put recently, that closing a cinema in a little town in the middle of Iowa is not the same thing as closing a theater on Broadway. Yes, there is risk in everything that doesn’t keep you in a bubble, but that doesn’t give us license to start thinking we know things we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Fleetwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fleetwood/32/271_2.png) [@Fleetwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fleetwood)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/25 "2020-05-20T11:15:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Even if they had the best intentions and practices of keeping people 6 feet apart, having people gather for non-essential reasons opens the church to speculation and criticism. Non-essential to you, maybe. Perhaps there are people who see church services as an essential or the most essential part of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/26 "2020-05-20T11:25:43Z")
> [@Fleetwood](#): > > Non-essential to you, maybe. Perhaps there are people who see church services as an essential or the most essential part of their lives. As Jesus said, we do not worship the Lord on this mountain or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth. Jesus also said to love your neighbor as yourself. To put your own need (such as it is) to meet with fellow believers under one roof ahead of the well-being of the larger community is doing quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/27 "2020-05-20T12:34:17Z")
> [@Fleetwood](#): > > Non-essential to you, maybe. Perhaps there are people who see church services as an essential or the most essential part of their lives. Do these people not own radios or TVs? A computer? At any given moment, a person in need of a good ole churching-up can find what they’re looking for by turning a dial, clicking the clicker, or hitting a button. There are also such things as prayer hotlines. And of course, if someone is that much of a devoted church member, they should be able to ring up Pastor if they need words of encouragement. That’s what their tithes and offerings help to pay for. There are all kinds of people who think non-essential things are actually essential. It is perfectly OK to judge these people negatively when their beliefs are putting other people’s lives at risk. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/28 "2020-05-20T13:06:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do these people not own radios or TVs? A computer? At any given moment, a person in need of a good ole churching-up can find what they’re looking for by turning a dial, clicking the clicker, or hitting a button. There are also such things as prayer hotlines. Now this, OTOH, is bullshit. “Good ole churching-up” isn’t something you can just tune into on the radio, or get by clicking on a website. Church is about being part of a faith _community_, and none of these suggestions have anything to do with that. Church isn’t something you _receive_; it’s something you _participate_ in. > [@](#): > > And of course, if someone is that much of a devoted church member, they should be able to ring up Pastor if they need words of encouragement. That’s what their tithes and offerings help to pay for. Better than nothing, I guess, but a more personalized one-to-many relationship still isn’t a community. Imagine, for instance, that this message board went down, and it was replaced (for paid members, anyway) by personalized messages of encouragement from Cecil Adams. Would you feel that was a meaningful replacement? Me either. But that’s a pretty good equivalent of what you’re suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/29 "2020-05-20T13:27:38Z")
> [@Fleetwood](#): > > Non-essential to you, maybe. Perhaps there are people who see church services as an essential or the most essential part of their lives. Indeed, their hearts yearn for their church service. But, as Jermiah says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” I think he meant that, if it is the wrong thing to do, then really,really wanting to do it doesn’t magically transform it in to the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/30 "2020-05-20T13:56:01Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Now this, OTOH, is bullshit. “Good ole churching-up” isn’t something you can just tune into on the radio, or get by clicking on a website. Church is about being part of a faith _community_, and none of these suggestions have anything to do with that. Church isn’t something you _receive_; it’s something you _participate_ in. You’ve got the nerve to lecture me about bullshit?! There are plenty of devoted Christians who cannot go to church, but they are still manage to participate in a faith community. Why do you think televangelists are so successful? Do you think the people who tune into the 700 Club every day aren’t participating in something much bigger than themselves? > [@](#): > > Better than nothing, I guess, but a more personalized one-to-many relationship still isn’t a community. > > Imagine, for instance, that this message board went down, and it was replaced (for paid members, anyway) by personalized messages of encouragement from Cecil Adams. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I’ve never met Cecil Adams. I’ve never heard him speak. I don’t know anything about him. So of course a personalized message from him wouldn’t mean anything to me. But Pastor is presumably someone a church-goer has met before. They’ve listened to his or her sermons every week. They’ve at least shaken his or her hand, if not full-on embraced them and invited them over for dinner. A regular church-goer (you know, the person who thinks church is essential) should have a personal connection to their pastor. If Pastor (or an associate minister) is someone they can’t call up in times of spiritual crisis, then why the hell are they going to church? My mother is an associate minister at her medium-sized church. Her phone has stayed busy over the past couple of months as her congregants have reached out to her for comfort and spiritual guidance. Do you really think it is reasonable to liken her to Cecil Adams? Do you really think that’s how she sees herself? Do you think that’s a fair, non-bullshit characterization?! You’ve got to come up with a better analogy than that, bruh. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/31 "2020-05-20T14:19:28Z")
[More church infections.](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-18/mendocino-county-church-service-linked-to-coronavirus-cluster) This one comes in direction violation of the lockdown order in California. > [@](#): > > Public health officials in Butte County issued a strongly worded warning after a person who attended an in-person religious service on Mother’s Day tested positive for the coronavirus. The person infected tested positive a day after the service. There were more than 180 attendees that all had to be notified by the government that they had been exposed. The pastor said that he would never put people in harm’s way. :smack: But he justified it by saying that getting together was essential. He took down the post and stopped answering questions about it later. > [@](#): > > “For 7 weeks we have been kept out of our church and away from our church family,” Jacobsen wrote in the post, which has since been deleted. “I am fully aware that some people may not understand that for our church it is essential to be together in fellowship.” If any others in the congregation get the coronavirus, they’ll be not getting together for a lot longer. This next example comes from a livestreamed event. The people livestreaming didn’t take the necessary precautions and got each other sick and then passed it on. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, a livestreamed Mother’s Day church service in Northern California is being blamed for a cluster of coronavirus cases in Mendocino and Lake counties. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/32 "2020-05-20T14:33:21Z")
> **[Canadian pastor in Myanmar faces 3 years in jail for defying restriction on...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canadian-pastor-charged-in-myanmar-for-defying-covid-19-restriction-on-gatherings-1.5570044)** > > David Lah said devout Christians could not get the coronavirus, then he got it himself. Now the Canadian who has been in Myanmar since at least February faces jail time for holding public sermons in defiance of government rules restricting large... Seems relevant in this thread ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/33 "2020-05-20T14:34:58Z")
I grew up Methodist, and was taught not to tempt the Lord. The Lord has given us knowledge on how the corona virus works. Church is wherever you and the Lord are together. Why pile up in a building when God specifically says it’s not necessary? ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/34 "2020-05-20T14:40:24Z")
Can anybody top this for “Imagine the COVID spread at a gathering, religious or otherwise?” WSJ article is behind a paywall for me, but here’s an intriguing title: Muslims Worry Coronavirus Will Prompt Saudi Arabia to Cancel This Year’s Hajj The five-day religious event, which gathers millions of people in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca and other sites, is due to begin in late July Bars (for example) are packed, but not with millions of people. People spend an evening in bars, not five days. And the people in bars are probably not from all over the world. It seems only fair that if people are going to assert that one religious service is essential (e.g. a Sunday service at your local Baptist church), then this pilgrimage would be as well. IANA Muslim, but if I understand correctly, it’s one of the five pillars—a very big deal to believers. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/35 "2020-05-20T14:45:52Z")
> [@](#): > > “For 7 weeks we have been kept out of our church and away from our church family,” Jacobsen wrote in the post, which has since been deleted. “I am fully aware that some people may not understand that for our church it is essential to be together in fellowship.” I’m sorry, but if I can go months without hitting bars, y’all can go without church. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/36 "2020-05-20T14:49:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You’ve got the nerve to lecture me about bullshit?! Well, I think you’ve got a lot of chutzpah to lecture me about Christianity. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of devoted Christians who cannot go to church, but they are still manage to participate in a faith community. Why do you think televangelists are so successful? Do you think the people who tune into the 700 Club every day aren’t participating in something much bigger than themselves? And if you think that’s the same thing as attending church, I gotta wonder where you’re coming from. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > > I’ve never met Cecil Adams. I’ve never heard him speak. I don’t know anything about him. So of course a personalized message from him wouldn’t mean anything to me. OK, make it **TubaDiva**. Whatever. > [@](#): > > But Pastor is presumably someone a church-goer has met before. They’ve listened to his or her sermons every week. They’ve at least shaken his or her hand, if not full-on embraced them and invited them over for dinner. A regular church-goer (you know, the person who thinks church is essential) should have a personal connection to their pastor. If Pastor (or an associate minister) is someone they can’t call up in times of spiritual crisis, then why the hell are they going to church? We aren’t talking about a time of spiritual crisis. We’re talking about a stand-in for ongoing participation in a community. No, the occasional phone chat with the minister can’t replace that. Not to mention, it’s a bit much to ask the minister to be the only one everybody in the church is interacting with. > [@](#): > > My mother is an associate minister at her medium-sized church. Her phone has stayed busy over the past couple of months as her congregants have reached out to her for comfort and spiritual guidance. Well, good for her. But I would HOPE that she’s doing a bit more than that - that she’s trying to help her congregation find alternative ways of connecting _with each other_ during this time, like small-group Bible studies on Zoom or something. > [@](#): > > Do you really think it is reasonable to liken her to Cecil Adams? Do you really think that’s how she sees herself? Do you think that’s a fair, non-bullshit characterization?! Like I said, try TubaDiva instead of Cecil. Whatever. And OK, your mother’s a minister, but don’t take this quite so personally, OK? > [@](#): > > You’ve got to come up with a better analogy than that, bruh. Sure, sis. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/37 "2020-05-20T14:57:06Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m sorry, but if I can go months without hitting bars, y’all can go without church. Yeah, that’s one more thing. Here you have a church - a community of people who profess some sort of spiritual connection with the Lord who created the Universe and everything in it. One would hope they’d be a bit more resilient and less needy than the average person lacking such a connection, that they wouldn’t need coddling and special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/38 "2020-05-20T15:12:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You’ve got the nerve to lecture me about bullshit?! > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, I think you’ve got a lot of chutzpah to lecture me about Christianity. **Moderating** Dial it back, please. Colibri QZ Moderator ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/39 "2020-05-20T15:18:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderating** > > Dial it back, please. > > Colibri > QZ Moderator Will do. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112/40 "2020-05-20T15:40:28Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Can anybody top this for “Imagine the COVID spread at a gathering, religious or otherwise?” WSJ article is behind a paywall for me, but here’s an intriguing title: > > Muslims Worry Coronavirus Will Prompt Saudi Arabia to Cancel This Year’s Hajj > The five-day religious event, which gathers millions of people in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca and other sites, is due to begin in late July > > Bars (for example) are packed, but not with millions of people. People spend an evening in bars, not five days. And the people in bars are probably not from all over the world. > > It seems only fair that if people are going to assert that one religious service is essential (e.g. a Sunday service at your local Baptist church), then this pilgrimage would be as well. IANA Muslim, but if I understand correctly, it’s one of the five pillars—a very big deal to believers. [Saudi Arabia have been considering suspending the hajj for this year for a while](https://en.tempo.co/read/1344111/govt-waits-for-saudi-arabias-decision-on-2020-hajj-until-june-1). Unsurprisingly it’s not a decision they will make lightly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todays-bible-lesson-you-reap-what-you-sow/854112.md?page=3)