Thank goodness tradition is only part of the test. Otherwise we would still have slavery, laws against inter-racial marriage, segregation, voting privileges for men only and other truly vile laws.
Anytime that someone says that we should do something because it’s always been done that way, I can’t help but think of Shirley Jackson’s short story The Lottery.
SolGrundy, I hope that this stupid discrimination ends soon and you will be able to express your love in all of the traditional ways if that is what you want.
Those who say that marriage between people of the same sex is an insult to marriage between heterosexuals need to be a little bit more in control of their own feelings. They are awfully selfish.
I celebrate love and family wherever I find it working!
Direct legal effect? None that I’m aware of. I’ve never studied law. But effect on society and effect on setting a legal precedent? Enormous. To suggest otherwise is fatuous.
Well, apparently there is. George W. Bush attempted to do as much earlier this year. Activist groups in Missouri suceeded in doing so. They did this by re-defining the institution of marriage that you maintain is so deeply rooted in our nation’s history. They did this by introducing a new exclusion to the institution, making the most important, the most overriding definition of what it means to be “married” the genitialia of the participants. They diminished the institution that I grew up with and learned to respect and always wanted for myself. They tarnished it by saying that it’s about nothing more than procreation and it’s open only to those with the same religious beliefs as a chosen few. They insulted me by saying that I don’t deserve to be part of it.
Rick, I typed a long response here, but I said absolutely nothing that I haven’t said 100 times before. There are only so many ways I can say the same thing. I’m tired of standing on the soapbox, and I’m tired of going round in circles. If your intention was to filibuster until we shut up, then it’s worked on me at least.
I’ll just repeat one last time, as simply as I can, my response to the only two points you’ve made that I consider relevant. The only two points that don’t talk about political process, and federalism, and states’ rights, and judicial fiat, but actually address the core issue of why marriage must remain exclusive to heterosexual couples.
Tradition:
If tradition were the overwhelming determining factor for the rule of law, then I’m outraged. I demand to have my slave. I demand to be able to go to the polling booths and laugh at women along the way who aren’t allowed to vote.
Religion:
Orthodox Jews believe that it’s a sin to eat pork. Fundamentalist Christians believe that it’s a sin to smoke hog. It is legal for me to do one of these, but not the other.
Someone has decided that one of these sets of religious beliefs is more important than the other, and someone has decided that these sets of religious beliefs apply to me, someone who does not share the same set of beliefs. That is not “tradition.” That goes against one of the most basic tenets of American government, the freedom to practice whichever religion you choose or no religion at all.
I can’t think of any other way to put it.
SolGrundy: I’m sorry.
I’m sorry that this issue holds such pain for you and others. I truly am. If my posts here suggest an insensitivity to the human cost experienced by all, please understand that this is not the case.
I just believe that the process is as important as the result. Innocent people are sometimes convicted of crimes. It’s rare, but it happens. But I wouldn’t suggest freeing all convicts because of those mistakes. The judicial process requires people to administer it, and thus practically guarantees that, rarely, there will be errors made. But that’s not a sufficient reason to trash it.
The legislative process is also imperfect. But it’s what we have all agreed to. The way laws are made in this country is by our democratically elected representatives. Even that election process can be viewed as imperfect - more than once in our history, the President has received fewer popular votes than his opponet. But the SYSTEM we’ve all agreed to is to count electoral votes. It may produce a result that some people don’t agree with, but the proper response is not to ignore the system and demand your desired result be imposed.
So, too, here. My major debate is not the merits or the wisdom of permitting same-sex marriage. It’s about HOW we get there.
I thought that was a kitten knife :eek:
d) His own love interest in Psycho
Interesting sentiment, but save your condolences for me. I definitely want to get married someday, but for now I’m still extremely single. I’m also just vocal about what I think is extremely unfair. Most of the people who want this don’t want to parade their personal lives all over the place; they just want to live “normal” lives and be left alone. Why should they have to? Straight couples don’t.
Of course the process is important, but only insofar as it’s the mechanism to guarantee that all people are treated fairly. Same-sex marriage activists are constantly being accused of trying to circumvent that process, and it’s all just spin and misdirection. So that people acting out of political or religious self-interest can claim they’re “defending” marriage from an “attack” by the liberal “Gay agenda.” And again, I’m just repeating myself: a purely democractic process would allow for the majority of people to vote against the rights of a minority. That’s precisely why we have a mechanism (the judiciary) to make sure that individuals don’t go unheard.
If your sympathy is genuine, save it for the thousands of couples, many of whom are members of this board, who can’t marry the person they love. Who are being told by their government and “the majority of their neighbors” that their love isn’t valid. That they don’t deserve the status. Who’ve had relationships that have lasted for years, and had to watch as hetero couples are getting married, divorced, and remarried all in the course of time it takes people to “figure out where they stand on the whole same-sex marriage issue.” Who’ve had to watch as people keep passing the buck, saying, “Well, I don’t have a problem with homosexuality itself, I just think it’s for the states to decide. That’s what’s most important.”
What’s most important is that everybody else just stay the fuck out of their business, and let them live in love and peace.