# Todd Bertuzzi...I'm speechless **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422 "2004-03-10T04:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/41 "2004-03-11T05:38:32Z")
**sturmhauke** , in my world (you know, the real world where people get hurt and not everything is fair) there are two rules. 1. I will defend myself with all means necessary. 2. If the authority figures won’t help out and I get jumped, one of my friends will be visiting you shortly, and it won’t be to buy you a beer and make buddy-buddy. Fighting in hockey is both an example of reality meeting sports and a perfect coincidence with my own views. If that makes me “bloodthirsty” and an “asshole”, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/42 "2004-03-11T07:02:54Z")
You’ll note I specifically said the refs should actually punish offenders. In this case, I’d say it’s a clear case of assault and Bertuzzi should face criminal charges. But hey, if you wanna see blood I guess the current state of things are just right for you. And spare me the “real world” crap, it’s a fucking game. If Bertuzzi had accidentally slammed into Moore and broke his neck, I wouldn’t be saying any of this (although I do think it’s stupid to subject oneself to such physical abuse as occurs in so many sports on a regular basis). Maybe Bertuzzi didn’t mean for Moore to get so badly hurt, but he clearly meant Moore to feel more than a little love tap. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/43 "2004-03-11T09:09:26Z")
First, I believe that the Ref’s are doing the best they can to call the game as fair as possible. If we were to go as far as RickJay’s proposal the game would no longer be playable. A certain amount of hooking, slashing, and cross checking is permitted to allow the game to be played. There are 12 guys, moving with a large amount of energy, in a small area, physical contact is going to happen. Fighting is a necessary part of hockey – but those of you who have never played at a highly competitive level won’t understand why. I’ve played hockey for 10 years, two of those at the college level. I’ve been in two fights in 10 years (I’m a goalie, so I don’t fight much). I have had players fight to protect me before. I have been slashed, tripped, or cross checked many times during the game. This is done in an effort to throw the goalie off his game. I expect to take some of it. Now it I think its getting excessive, and for whatever reason, the Ref was not calling it, its time for one of my teammates to protect me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/44 "2004-03-11T12:19:40Z")
I don’t quite get it. If fighting isn’t necessary in international and Olympic hockey, then why is it necessary for NHL hockey? Other than as a sop to the lunkhead fans who only watch it for the fights… ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/45 "2004-03-11T13:29:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I don’t quite get it. If fighting isn’t necessary in international and Olympic hockey, then why is it necessary for NHL hockey? … Hell, the best hockey I’ve ever watched is NOT the NHL. Even Don Cherry said that if you want to watch great hockey, watch the women’s teams! With no checking, they’ve got to _move_, skate well, pass the puck well… in other words they _play the game_ instead of just trying to charge and smash their way through. You get to see some great stick handling and terrific plays. I used to watch hockey all the time (both as a fan and because I worked in a related industry). International hockey rocked! I do’t watch hockey anymore (except during the Olympics) because without cable, all I get is NHL hockey. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/46 "2004-03-11T13:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > sturmhauke, in my world … there are two rules. > > 1. I will defend myself with all means necessary. > 2. If the authority figures won’t help out and I get jumped, one of my friends will be visiting you shortly, and it won’t be to buy you a beer and make buddy-buddy. Rule #1 sounds fair. Rule #2 sounds like vigilanteism. ---
**Author:** ![hockeynut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hockeynut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hockeynut)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/47 "2004-03-11T14:15:20Z")
The NHL is announcing the terms of his suspension today at 9am. I’m waiting to hear the results. I will pass them along as soon as they’re available. Personally, I think he’s done for the season (including playoffs) without pay. ---
**Author:** ![hockeynut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hockeynut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hockeynut)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/48 "2004-03-11T14:17:47Z")
The NHL made their decision. He’s gone for the remainder of the regular season and playoffs. Here’s a link: [Season Over](http://www.tsn.ca/) ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/49 "2004-03-11T14:28:47Z")
> [@Attrayant](#): > > Rule #2 sounds like vigilanteism. Yes, and sometimes this is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/50 "2004-03-11T14:34:39Z")
IMHO, it’s simply not sufficient. Hopefully he’ll go to prison. Unless someone shows some leadership and changes the league so the cycle of violence ends, somebody will be murdered on the ice. The notion that fighting is “necessary” is probably the most clueless, stupid idea in sports today. Someday someone will actually be killed, and THEN they’ll wring their hands and say “ohhh, how did it come to this? Why haven’t we made them wear proper protective great? Why did we allow cheap shots and fighting? We must change!” Many of the people saying this will be the same numbskulls saying “fighting is a necessary part of the game!” now, all unaware that they’re in a prisoner’s dillemma that can be quite easily solved. Fighting isn’t a necessary part of football, which has even harder hitting. It s not a necessary part of basketball or baseball. It’s not a necessary part of soccer (for the players, anyway). And it’s apparently not a necessary part of hockey, since playoff hockey has almost no fighting and is better than regular season hockey. A very interesting article about another sport and league where the Clueless Brigade said fighting was “necessary”: [http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article\_Type1&c=Article&cid=1078960508052&call\_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064](http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1078960508052&call_pageid=968867503640&col=970081593064) ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/51 "2004-03-11T16:20:25Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > There are 12 guys, moving with a large amount of energy, in a small area, physical contact is going to happen. Physical contact is not the same as fighting. Bertuzzi didn’t bump Moore out of the way, he punched Moore in the back of the head, fell on top of him, and started a dogpile. Since when is dogpiling part of hockey? When the refs picked everyone off, Moore lay in a pool of his own blood with a broken neck. > [@](#): > > Fighting is a necessary part of hockey – but those of you who have never played at a highly competitive level won’t understand why. Uh huh. I’ve been in martial arts tournaments. Fighting is the whole point at these things, and yet you don’t generally see people being hauled out on stretchers. Why is this? It’s called discipline. Martial arts are big on discipline. NHL hockey apparently isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/52 "2004-03-11T16:55:23Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > Uh huh. I’ve been in martial arts tournaments. Fighting is the whole point at these things, and yet you don’t generally see people being hauled out on stretchers. Ummm, you don’t generally see many NHL dudes hauled out on stretchers. It’s just as uncommon in the NHL as it is in other sports. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/53 "2004-03-11T17:21:36Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > Uh huh. I’ve been in martial arts tournaments. Fighting is the whole point at these things, and yet you don’t generally see people being hauled out on stretchers. Why is this? It’s called discipline. Martial arts are big on discipline. NHL hockey apparently isn’t. I think that everbody needs to be clear on the point that what Bert did was not fight. It was a blindside/cheapshot/ambush (pick any or all of the terms). As somebody mentioned earlier, the refs seem to have a problem calling games by the book. Never mind that a game in October is called differently than a game in March, or the way that a first period is called differently than a third period. This is why fighting exists. It is a mechanism for players to police themselves when the refs or the league won’t. Like I said earlier, I think that Moores hit on Naslund was a cheapshot. If the league had given him a suspension (I thought there was a crack down on shots to the head) then this thread doesn’t exist. There is no excusing what Todd Bertuzzi did. However, Moore needed to be penalized for his hit on Naslund. Earlier in the game in question, Moore was fought by another Canucks player in a more ‘traditional’ hockey fight, ie. the challenge was issued by one player and accepted by the other. When a fight usually happens it is to send the message “we know what you did and we don’t like it”. Obviously, this sort of justice doesn’t sit well with everybody, but it is much better than a game where sticks are carried and swung in a careless manner, or a game where sombody does something like what Bert did earlier in the week, or what McSorley did four years ago or what Eddie Shore did 70 years ago. The NHL needs to crack down on the officials, the rest will flow from that. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/54 "2004-03-11T18:43:56Z")
> [@Windwalker](#): > > How about this as punishment? For as long as Moore is injured and unable to play, Bertuzzi is suspended. Thus, every time you start something, you’ll keep in the back of your head that any harm you do will harm you as well proportionately. I’m surprised nobody else has commented on this. I think it’s a pretty good idea that would certainly cut down on the most egregious offenses. And re “fighting being necessary,” again, I love international hockey and I don’t care for NHL’s version. If fighting is “necessary” in hockey, then what the heck am I watching at the Olympics? It’s either necessary or it isn’t. If it is, then the two games should be called by different names, because they’re obviously different sports. If it isn’t, then it needs to fucking _go._ Guess which one I choose. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/55 "2004-03-11T21:21:58Z")
> [@Eats\_Crayons](#): > > Hell, the best hockey I’ve ever watched is NOT the NHL. Even Don Cherry said that if you want to watch great hockey, watch the women’s teams! With no checking, they’ve got to _move_, skate well, pass the puck well… in other words they _play the game_ instead of just trying to charge and smash their way through. You get to see some great stick handling and terrific plays. I like watching NHL hockey, but the best hockey game I’ve ever seen was the 2003 NCAA Women’s National Championship game in Duluth. UMD 4, Harvard 3 in double overtime. Go Bulldogs! ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/56 "2004-03-11T22:32:41Z")
Just wanted to post this link to some [wise words from the mulleted one](http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=melrose_barry&id=1756696). > [@](#): > > Others will be calling for an end to fighting and a move to European rules, but they likely don’t watch a lot of overseas hockey. If they did, they’d see that the European game is the dirtiest in the world. Players over there engage in all kinds of stickwork – slashing, spearing, high-sticking – and the physical play involves kicking and the like. There is no accountability or retribution, so a dirty player can run rampant all game long without having to face justice. > > And the faction that says the NHL should adopt international rules forgets that the Olympics feature the eight best teams in the world, each featuring the 20 best players from their countries. The skill level across the board is totally different and the product will be better no matter what rules they play under. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/57 "2004-03-11T23:16:14Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I’m surprised nobody else has commented on this. I think it’s a pretty good idea that would certainly cut down on the most egregious offenses. > > And re “fighting being necessary,” again, I love international hockey and I don’t care for NHL’s version. If fighting is “necessary” in hockey, then what the heck am I watching at the Olympics? > > It’s either necessary or it isn’t. If it is, then the two games should be called by different names, because they’re obviously different sports. If it isn’t, then it needs to fucking _go._ Guess which one I choose. The thought crossed my mind, where a player should be suspended as long as the player he crippled is out injured. What if you have a player exagerrate how injured he is in order to keep a player out. I see all sorts of ways people would take advantage of a rule like that. I still say let them work it out on the ice. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/58 "2004-03-12T00:10:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I still say let them work it out on the ice. Isn’t that what happened in this case; they worked it out on the ice? You’re OK with the way things turned out here? ---
**Author:** ![Cosmopolitan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/94ad74/32.png) [@Cosmopolitan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cosmopolitan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/59 "2004-03-12T01:39:31Z")
Hmmmm. I’ll avoid the question of whether fights are integral to the sport of ice hockey & head right to the Bertuzzi-Moore incident because I think that the two aren’t very closely related. Fights involve, in my mind, two active participants; in this case, however, Bertuzzi thuggishly ambushed Moore - I think that’s pretty obvious. Do I think that Bertuzzi meant specifically to break Moore’s neck? Nah. Do I think he meant to put Moore in a world of hurt for a while? Yeah, of course! Besides, which, it was premeditated. Bert got what he deserved. The question of whether he should be banned/jailed might depend on the question of reasonableness as it applies to the sport as it’s played in the NHL. What I mean is this: Were Bert’s actions unsportsmanlike/violent above & beyond what can be expected during your average hockey game? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422/60 "2004-03-12T03:11:39Z")
Assault. That’s all this was. This wasn’t a fight. There is no excuse for this, IMO. This guy is not an athlete as much as he is a thug. He should do time for this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/todd-bertuzzi-im-speechless/233422.md?page=4)