Todd Bertuzzi...I'm speechless

[White_Lightning]

@spooje

Are you saying that a punch to the face, any punch, is legal according to the rules of hockey? Can you provide a rule number?

And I can see no reasonable way of arguing that this was NOT a sucker-punch. Moore had his backed turned and was skating away when Bertuzzi grabbed him by the back of the jersey and punched him in the side of the head. This guy had no way of defending himself, as he never saw the attack. He only felt the blow.

No. I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. Look, I probably know the least about the rules of hockey of anyone in this thread. I’m just saying that it’s not “open and shut” assault because different rules apply on the NHL ice than on a city street.

@spooje

This was so far outside the bounds of what is acceptable that the authorities must step in. This was not a part of the game.

Well, that’d be the question at hand. I saw a few replays and it looked like a hockey play to me. A particularly violent play, but hockey seems to me to be a particularly violent sport. Personally I’d think the matter would be best handled first by the NHL, and if they conclude that punitive measures from the league are not sufficient, that it be then turned over to civil authorities. But I don’t think the police are equipped to handle the oversight of what happens on the field of play at all athletic events. But that’s just my opinion.

[RickJay]

@White Lightning

Personally I’d think the matter would be best handled first by the NHL, and if they conclude that punitive measures from the league are not sufficient, that it be then turned over to civil authorities.

This isn’t something the NHL has a choice about; they’re not a law unto themselves. The Vancouver police are investigating the incident, because they recieved information that an assault had taken place. The NHL doesn’t have an option to tell the cops not to investigate or lay charges…

[Typo_Negative]

@White Lightning

Well, that’d be the question at hand. I saw a few replays and it looked like a hockey play to me. .

I’m having a hard time seeing this. Moore had his back to Bertuzzi and was skating away from him. That was why Bertuzzi had to grab Moore by the back of the jersey. He grabbed the jersey, pulled on it, and threw the punch, which Moore never saw. Bertuzzi had to lunge forward to hit Moore in the side of the face. Not a body check, not a high stick, but a punch. The puck was nowhere near either of them.

How is that a hockey play?

[Harborwolf]

I love this considering these were the Colorado fans cheering after Claude Lemieux literally rearranged Kris Drapers face by checking him from behind into an open bench door :rolleyes:

Anywho, while the play was unquestionably dirty, some of it was accidental. Does anybody honestly think that Todd Bertuzzi meant to break Steve Moores neck? He’s been punished. No hockey till next year if he’s lucky. $500,000 out if his pocket (not a great sum, but certainly no chump change either). $250,000 from the team. The Canucks go from cup hopefulls to playoff pickings, and if they do manage to win the cup he’ll have to watch from home or a skybox and not from ice level. On top of that, the dude feels genuinely sorry.

I wonder why this has to be viewed as what is wrong with hockey as opposed to one teams stupid decision.

[Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow]

@spooje

Yes, the QB does consent to be hit during the course of a play. Hitting is a part of the game. That doesn’t mean he consents to be assaulted after the play.

So if a player smuggles brass knuckles onto the field and uses them on the QB during the play, that isn’t assault purely by virtue of the fact that the play hadn’t yet been blown dead? I hardly think so.

I also wonder if you read the part of my post that you didn’t quote. As I noted, this sort of thing is an area that defies the use of hard-and-fast rules. The issue is indeed consent, but the exact scope of that consent is not easy to define.

[EllisDee]

@kinoons

First, I believe that the Ref’s are doing the best they can to call the game as fair as possible. If we were to go as far as RickJay’s proposal the game would no longer be playable. A certain amount of hooking, slashing, and cross checking is permitted to allow the game to be played. There are 12 guys, moving with a large amount of energy, in a small area, physical contact is going to happen.

Fighting is a necessary part of hockey – but those of you who have never played at a highly competitive level won’t understand why.

I’m confused. The most compelling argument for the necessity of fighting was summed up nicely by kinoons. I’ve heard many times it from avid hockey fans IRL.

Here’s the thing, though. There is just as much, if not more, dirty tactics and illegal moves being done on the line in football, (usually by the OL but also some by the DL) as there is in a hockey game. So why don’t linemen feel the need fight like hockey players do?

There are two kinds of hockey fights, as far as I can tell: you’re pissing me off, so let’s go; and you messed with my teammate, so let’s go.

The first kind I think should be officiated out. Sometimes they don’t even involve rule infractions of any kind. If you check somebody a bunch of times, perfectly legally, they may jump up and be ready to throw down. That’s a ridiculous, crybaby aspect of the game that I would love to see stamped out. Game suspension for any fighting like that. If you don’t like being checked, don’t play the game.

The second type I’m wishy washy about. My gut instinct tells me that if the skill guy can’t defend himself, he shouldn’t be on the ice, but I recognize that as naive. A QB isn’t expected to defend himself…that’s what the center is for. I suppose I don’t mind protecting your teammate.

But if you start a fight because you can’t handle legitimate hockey, you won’t have me as a fan. And judging by the current state of hockey ratings, my single viewership is significant.

I remember the 49ers-Giants playoff game a couple years ago. A fight almost broke out in the 4th quarter. The other players on the field helped to prevent a fight. This should be the mindset of hockey. I wouldn’t even mind seeing every man on the ice get 2 minutes after any fight. Once both teams are a full line down, maybe they will start realizing that avoiding fights is a good idea.

In sports, as in life, cooler heads should prevail. The fact that the NHL glorifies hotheads and denigrates keeping your head makes me sick.

[Ike_Witt]

I’m confused… There are two kinds of hockey fights, as far as I can tell: you’re pissing me off, so let’s go; and you messed with my teammate, so let’s go.

The first kind I think should be officiated out. Sometimes they don’t even involve rule infractions of any kind. If you check somebody a bunch of times, perfectly legally, they may jump up and be ready to throw down. That’s a ridiculous, crybaby aspect of the game that I would love to see stamped out. Game suspension for any fighting like that. If you don’t like being checked, don’t play the game.

The second type I’m wishy washy about. My gut instinct tells me that if the skill guy can’t defend himself, he shouldn’t be on the ice, but I recognize that as naive. A QB isn’t expected to defend himself…that’s what the center is for. I suppose I don’t mind protecting your teammate.

Your position is contradictory. First you say that players shouldn’t fight to defend themselves then you say that if they can’t defend themselves they shouldn’t play the game. Which is it?

But if you start a fight because you can’t handle legitimate hockey, you won’t have me as a fan.

This is rarely the case. Fights are mostly to address dirty play. Occasionally, there is a fight to “spark” a team that is playing bad and losing. Those fights happen between players that are used to fighting. It is quite uncommon for a fight to break out because somebody can’t handle legitimate hockey.

In sports, as in life, cooler heads should prevail. The fact that the NHL glorifies hotheads and denigrates keeping your head makes me sick.

Yes, cooler heads should prevail, but often they don’t. So is society mirroring hockey in that regard, or is hockey mirroring society? Also, please support your statement that the NHL “glorifies hotheads”.

[EllisDee]

@adam yax

Your position is contradictory. First you say that players shouldn’t fight to defend themselves then you say that if they can’t defend themselves they shouldn’t play the game. Which is it?

It is not contradictory, but I do recognize that there are shades of gray involved. To answer your specific question, I don’t think fighting should be the way a player defends himself. He should keep his head up when crossing the line with the puck, and he should retaliate with checks, not punches. So he should defend himself within the game. He should not fight. In that context, my position is not contradictory.

Yes, cooler heads should prevail, but often they don’t. So is society mirroring hockey in that regard, or is hockey mirroring society? Also, please support your statement that the NHL “glorifies hotheads”.

If two players start throwing punches in any other sport, the league will sanction them with fines and/or suspensions. In hockey, they do nothing to sanction the fighters. This is glorifying hotheads.

[Ike_Witt]

@Ellis Dee

If two players start throwing punches in any other sport, the league will sanction them with fines and/or suspensions. In hockey, they do nothing to sanction the fighters. This is glorifying hotheads.

Sanction: I don’t think this word means what you think it means. In fact you are probably looking for its antonym.

And let me get this straight? Just because you don’t feel that the NHL has strict enough rules about fighting, that is glorifying it? Not quite. If the NHL used high sticking, spearing and things like the Bertuzzi incident to promote itself, that would be glorifying it.

[Kalhoun]

@xayoz306

Fighting is an integral part of the sport, much like tackling is in football, and players who slide into second with their spikes up in baseball.

Yeah…would you look at that? I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out!

Fighting is not part of the sport. I don’t think it can be compared to either the tackling scenario or the spikes scenario. It’s a deviation from play. Every single time. It’s wrong, and this jerk should do time for what he did.

I understand that the fans go for the blood and drama, but that doesn’t make it part of the sport. You wanna see a fight? Go to a boxing event.

[sturmhauke]

@adam yax

Sanction: I don’t think this word means what you think it means. In fact you are probably looking for its antonym.

“Sanction” is one of those strange words that is its own antonym.

[EllisDee]

@adam yax

Sanction: I don’t think this word means what you think it means. In fact you are probably looking for its antonym.

hehheh.

And let me get this straight? Just because you don’t feel that the NHL has strict enough rules about fighting, that is glorifying it?

Uh, yes, that’s exactly what it means.

Not quite. If the NHL used high sticking, spearing and things like the Bertuzzi incident to promote itself, that would be glorifying it.

Okay, maybe you have a point. The minors promote themselves on fighting, not the NHL. It’s just the NHL farm league. It is like how the minor leagues in baseball promote themselves on pitchers throwing at the batters’ heads, and NFL Europe promotes itself on late hits and taking out the knees. Oh wait, my mistake. It’s only the NHL farm system that does that.

Maybe glorifying is too strong a word, but not by much. Encourage is probably closer to the mark. Where is the downside to throwing down in hockey? I won’t get fined or suspended, and my team won’t even be a man down for a penalty. Why wouldn’t I fight?

Take any other sport. The NFL is a good one to compare with because it’s the only sport more violent than Hockey, but the NBA and MLB also work for this thought experiment:

Scenario A: Two players, at the end of a play, start throwing punches at one another until one is knocked to the ground.

Scenario B: One player sucker punches another in the back of the head.

Now, what are the sanctions levied against the puncher in both scenarios? In the NFL, there would probably be no difference. Same punishments for either case. In the NBA, there would also probably be very little difference in the penalties. In MLB, Scenario A would probably draw less ire from the league, but there would still be repercussions. And in the NHL? Scenario A draws no response from the league whatsoever, whereas Scenario B (apparently) gets you suspended for the remainder of the season, including playoffs.

Quite the disparity in the NHL, don’t you think?

The fact that NHL players are allowed to stop the entire game in order to have an impromptu boxing match is ludicrous.

If fighting is part of the game, why does it violate the 15 second faceoff rule? Why don’t they drop the puck while the fight is still going on? Because fighting is not part of the game.

[Lynne_kilii]

@World Eater

What broke the vertebrae? The punch or the fall?

He was punched with the gloves on, which isn’t too bad, and he just happened to fall weirdly. Every couple of years there’s a big cheapshot like this, it’s unfortunate, but it’s the nature of the game. Leave it on the ice, he’ll get what’s coming to him

I live in Colorado, and what I’ve heard on two seprate radio stations ( which I couldn’t verify through Google, I’m really bad at searching) is that hockey gloves have metal in the gloves to prevent pucks from breaking a players hand. This makes punching with the gloves on assault.

[Raygun99]

@Lynne_kilii

I live in Colorado, and what I’ve heard on two seprate radio stations ( which I couldn’t verify through Google, I’m really bad at searching) is that hockey gloves have metal in the gloves to prevent pucks from breaking a players hand. This makes punching with the gloves on assault.

Mine certainly don’t. There was a joke in Slap Shot about the three gooniest players wrapping their knuckles in aluminum foil, but that never actually happens.

[Rysto]

@Lynne_kilii

I live in Colorado, and what I’ve heard on two seprate radio stations ( which I couldn’t verify through Google, I’m really bad at searching) is that hockey gloves have metal in the gloves to prevent pucks from breaking a players hand. This makes punching with the gloves on assault.

That’s bullshit. There is no metal padding in any part of a player’s equipment.

[Typo_Negative]

@Dewey Cheatem Undhow

So if a player smuggles brass knuckles onto the field and uses them on the QB during the play, that isn’t assault purely by virtue of the fact that the play hadn’t yet been blown dead? I hardly think so.

Neither do I. C’mon, there are some things we can all agree on.

@Dewey Cheatem Undhow

The issue is indeed consent, but the exact scope of that consent is not easy to define.

OK, is there some implied consent to being punched in the head? Outside of boxing and X-treme figting sports?

[LastStanding]

'Tuzzi is a player with great skills,tremendous ability,and one of the true superstars of the game…that said,he is also one of the biggest assholes on the ice today.This fucking guy has a chip on his shoulder the size of Texas.
Emotion or not,that hit was as chickenshit as I’ve seen in a long while."Hey Todd,you’re making plenty of money to play a GAME…lighten the fuck up."I got no problem with the “code” in Hockey but suckering someone from behind has gutless bastard written all over it.Like life,you got a problem with someone?..fine,then stand up to them face-to-face and deal with it.
Keep crying boy,and when you’re finished,maybe you can grow a fucking spine.

[Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow]

@spooje

Neither do I. C’mon, there are some things we can all agree on.

I agree that we all would probably concur that the brass-knuckles-during-the-play is out of bounds. My point in bringing it up was to demonstrate a shortcoming in using bright-line rules in this area – simply saying “the key to distinguishing between a permissible and impermissible vicious hit is whether the play has been blown dead” is that it leaves some fairly gaping loopholes open.

@spooje

OK, is there some implied consent to being punched in the head? Outside of boxing and X-treme figting sports?

Maybe, maybe not. Headslaps are part of football; sharp elbows part of basketball. Hockey, particularly American hockey, is known as a rough sport. Whether a given punch is within or without the scope of implied consent is going to turn on the particulars of a given situation. There isn’t a bright-line test to determine the answer to that question one way or another.

[Lynne_kilii]

@Rysto

That’s bullshit. There is no metal padding in any part of a player’s equipment.

Ok, then. So sorry!