# Toddlers and Tiaras: There's crazy out there **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756 "2009-07-30T04:48:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/21 "2009-07-31T14:51:04Z")
A two week old isn’t even a toddler yet. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/22 "2009-07-31T14:56:11Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > That’s just sad. A friend from years back couldn’t understand why her six-month-old wouldn’t listen when she told him to stop fussing. She actually spanked him. It’s scary, the number of parents who know nothing about child development. What did you tell her? I hope you fought her ignorance successfully. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/23 "2009-07-31T15:10:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There are Christian fundamentalists who say that babies who cry for any reason other than hunger are engaging in deception and thus must be punished. I wish I were kidding. Some of that vile sort can be found here: > **[No Greater Joy Ministries - Family and Marriage Resources from Michael and...](https://nogreaterjoy.org/)** > > Family and Marriage Resources from Michael and Debi Pearl A summary from Salon: > **[Spare the quarter-inch plumbing supply line, spoil the child - Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/2006/05/25/the_pearls/)** > > Saying no to "timeouts," some fundamentalist Christians "train up" their children by carefully hitting them with switches, PVC pipes and other "chastening instruments." ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/24 "2009-07-31T15:22:13Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Some of that vile sort can be found here: > > [http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/](http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/) > > A summary from Salon: > > [http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the\_pearls/](http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls/) The Salon article is pretty shady. > [@](#): > > (“Christian,” here and throughout, indicates fundamentalist or evangelical Protestants.) In otherwords, “I have a bone to pick and want to espouse a bigotted view of Christianity but this disclaimer will make it seem otherwise even though I realize that subliminally people will forget about the disclaimer by page 3 and associate these techniques with Christianity even though there is no basis in Christian belief for this, only the basis of people who are CLAIMING they are Christian techniques.” Yes conservative Christians are more likely to believe in corporal punishment, but I think if you talk to the average person, a quarter inch plumbing line would look pretty bad. A wooden paddle or a hand is sufficient. I was beaten with a belt and would have welts along my back for days. That’s abuse. I was hit with wire flyswatters across the face, that’s abuse. I was hit with telephones, that’s abuse. I had nails dug into my wrists until I bled, that’s abuse. So is hitting someone with a plumbing line, or even a switch from a tree. A wooden paddle doesn’t hurt that much to be honest, and a hand while it stings is not too bad. There is nothing inherently, “Christian”, about these child-rearing methods. ---
**Author:** ![Ruffian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@Ruffian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruffian)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/25 "2009-07-31T15:23:37Z")
I’ve seen an episode or three of this show in the past, but I just couldn’t stomach it. (Well, I do like the girl who was excited that her $1000 prize meant she would get to buy a cow–at the end she was singing, “I get a cow-ow! I get a cow-ow!” Now _that’s_ my kind of kid. She probably would be just as happy filthy with dirt, manure, cow hair, cow sweat, and wear clothing accented with bits of hay.) There’s trainwreck TV, and then there’s…_this_. Bluh. I did find a commercial for it that aired the other day most interesting; the announcer read a quote from a supposed fan that said, “I love a show that makes me feel like a good mom!” Soooo…they’re totally, unashamedly advertising that this show is about God Awful Parenting, so you can feel superior. I’m not sure what to make of that–it’s honest, it’s true, but…ick. I much prefer my Mystery Diagnosis and Dr. G. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/26 "2009-07-31T15:28:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The Salon article is pretty shady. > > In otherwords, “I have a bone to pick and want to espouse a bigotted view of Christianity but this disclaimer will make it seem otherwise even though I realize that subliminally people will forget about the disclaimer by page 3 and associate these techniques with Christianity even though there is no basis in Christian belief for this, only the basis of people who are CLAIMING they are Christian techniques.” > > Yes conservative Christians are more likely to believe in corporal punishment, but I think if you talk to the average person, a quarter inch plumbing line would look pretty bad. A wooden paddle or a hand is sufficient. > > I was beaten with a belt and would have welts along my back for days. That’s abuse. I was hit with wire flyswatters across the face, that’s abuse. I was hit with telephones, that’s abuse. I had nails dug into my wrists until I bled, that’s abuse. So is hitting someone with a plumbing line, or even a switch from a tree. > > A wooden paddle doesn’t hurt that much to be honest, and a hand while it stings is not too bad. > > There is nothing inherently, “Christian”, about these child-rearing methods. I think the article is a slam on the Pearls rather than a slam on Christians. They advocate some rather disgusting disciplinary methods. They deserve to get called out for it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/27 "2009-07-31T15:34:01Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I think the article is a slam on the Pearls rather than a slam on Christians. They advocate some rather disgusting disciplinary methods. They deserve to get called out for it. Honestly, while I don’t agree totally with the Pearl’s methods, I agree with the theory behind it. Yes, children do need to be trained. There is nothing wrong with that. Personally I don’t like to spank my kids, but my big problem with him is his advocation of weapons in punishment. I don’t think that corporal punishment should be considered evil and abhorrent. Everything he says about it makes sense. Not to do it in anger, and for training, not punishment. That all makes a lot of sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/28 "2009-07-31T15:38:06Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > There are prolly, but there’s not an atheist philsophy about beating the kids. Due to the nature of athiesm, I’m pretty certain there’s no unifying philosophy of athiesm for anything. Makes it rough to pin much of anything on them as a group. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I forgot the details (been over ten years) but there was something out there that was some messed up " fundie Christian" philsophy that basicly stated that little kids crying are teh evil, and must be ignored. If true, they should be arrested, stuck in a cell, and promptly ignored when they called out for food and water. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/29 "2009-07-31T15:43:23Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > Due to the nature of athiesm, I’m pretty certain there’s no unifying philosophy of athiesm for anything. Makes it rough to pin much of anything on them as a group. 🙂 > > If true, they should be arrested, stuck in a cell, and promptly ignored when they called out for food and water. Um…why, exactly, are you leaving out the beatings? ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/30 "2009-07-31T16:15:05Z")
I haven’t watched the show and won’t, no moral outrage just not interested in the subject. One thing that creeped me out was that one of the trailers has a little girl that looks almost exactly like JonBenet Ramsey. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/31 "2009-07-31T16:33:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > After only a couple episodes, how many times have we already seen a mom say, “oh, she doesn’t mind it at all,” \ In that respect, I almost feel better about the “older” girl from the promos who was asked if she was looking forward to the pageant, and came out with a very teenager-sounding ‘I don’t **care** about the pageant’ response. At least she just sounded bored and annoyed instead of tearful. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/32 "2009-07-31T16:40:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Um…why, exactly, are you leaving out the beatings? I try not to sink to the level of my enemies. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/33 "2009-07-31T17:19:19Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > In that respect, I almost feel better about the “older” girl from the promos who was asked if she was looking forward to the pageant, and came out with a very teenager-sounding ‘I don’t **care** about the pageant’ response. At least she just sounded bored and annoyed instead of tearful. If it was the same girl I saw, they were asking how she felt about her competition: “I don’t care about them.” And one of the moms on there starting abusing her daughter at birth: She spells her name Makynli. (~McKinley :rolleyes:) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/34 "2009-07-31T17:22:55Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > And one of the moms on there starting abusing her daughter at birth: She spells her name Makynli. (~McKinley :rolleyes:) Oh man, I almost gagged when I saw that. I didn’t think anyone could top my friend who named her daughter Makayla, but this crazy bint did. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/35 "2009-07-31T17:39:50Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > I try not to sink to the level of my enemies. Aren’t you supposed to love them? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/36 "2009-07-31T17:50:34Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > If it was the same girl I saw, they were asking how she felt about her competition: “I don’t care about them.” Oh boo. ☹ I only see the promos in bits between fast-forwarding through recorded shows, so I must have misheard that part. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/37 "2009-07-31T18:01:54Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Oh man, I almost gagged when I saw that. I didn’t think anyone could top my friend who named her daughter Makayla, but this crazy bint did. Isn’t it an interesting commentary on our conformity that it’s considered abusive to spell the name oddly? ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/38 "2009-07-31T18:08:28Z")
On names, my favorite is Kenzie. They just drop the “Mc” all together, and have a totally made up name. And McKinley is rather abusive; you imagine she’ll at some point get the nickname “Mount.” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/39 "2009-07-31T18:27:43Z")
I saw one part of a similar show, where a mother was basically bankrupting herself to enter her 4 year old daughter in all these pageants (the entrance fee, the outfits, the hairspray) and would give her daughter Pixie sticks to “pep” her up before the pageant. Yeah, she won’t grow up with any issues. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756/40 "2009-07-31T18:45:02Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > On names, my favorite is Kenzie. They just drop the “Mc” all together, and have a totally made up name. Well considering ‘Mac’ meant ‘offspring of’, it’s sort of odd to give a girl a family name, so Kenzie would’ve originally been someone’s first name. Mac Kenzie. 😉 The offspring of Kenzie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toddlers-and-tiaras-theres-crazy-out-there/504756.md?page=3)