# Toe or Tow the line? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 28, 2002, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414 "2002-11-28T23:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![spiffo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@spiffo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spiffo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/1 "2002-11-28T23:22:45Z")
Dopers, I had a “discussion” last night about the expression “tow the line”. (as in Tow the company line) Can someone please confirm if it should be Toe the line or Tow the line. Also, what is the “origin of words” web site that always gets referenced around here? Spiffo ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/2 "2002-11-28T23:27:09Z")
No cite, but I always believed it was “toe the line” or obey the rules very strictly. ---
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/3 "2002-11-28T23:30:03Z")
“Toe the line” as in “Get into formation and shape up, with your toes up to this line on the floor.” Origin probably military, or my high school gym teacher (almost the same thing).🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/4 "2002-11-28T23:30:41Z")
Under \*\*to toe a _or_ the line, \*\*, the OED says > [@](#): > > to stand with the tips of one’s toes exactly touching a line … hence fig. to present oneself in readiness for a race … The earliest citation is from 1813. ---
**Author:** ![ladydisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@ladydisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladydisco)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/5 "2002-11-28T23:40:43Z")
Am I the only one who thought it meant “to get really close to crossing the line” (as in ‘go too far’)? ---
**Author:** ![TBone2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@TBone2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBone2)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/6 "2002-11-29T00:05:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ladydisco \* > \*\*Am I the only one who thought it meant “to get really close to crossing the line” (as in ‘go too far’)? \*\* Yeah, you’re the only one.:rolleyes: To fit your definition, I’ve heard “walking a fine line.” ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/7 "2002-11-29T00:29:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > \*\*Under \*\*to toe a _or_ the line, \*\*, the OED says The earliest citation is from 1813. \*\* Curious. I don’t want to argue with bibliophage and the OED combined, but I’ve heard the origin as coming from bare-knuckle boxing when fighters had to “come up to scratch” and “toe the line” to slug it out with each other, giving us both those phrases. Some references also seem to think that it comes from military inspections. “toe”, not “tow”, though. ---
**Author:** ![Motog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Motog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motog)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/8 "2002-11-29T01:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spiffo \* > \*\*Dopers, > > Also, what is the “origin of words” web site that always gets referenced around here? > > Spiffo \*\* Others have answered your first question so I’ll stick to this second question. There are a couple of main ones I use: First is the Merriam Webster dictionary at [www.m-w.com](http://www.m-w.com) that often contains word etymologies with their definitions. Note that this is an American dictionary Also the Word Detective at [http://www.word-detective.com/backidx.html](http://www.word-detective.com/backidx.html) (US) And World Wide Words at [http://www.quinion.com/words/index.htm](http://www.quinion.com/words/index.htm) (British) These will cover most of your questions but there’s a range of other ones as well eg. I use the Macquarie Dictionary ([http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au](http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au)) and the Macquarie Dictionary of slang for Australian usages ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/9 "2002-11-29T01:23:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yabob \* > Curious. I don’t want to argue with bibliophage and the OED combined, but I’ve heard the origin as coming from bare-knuckle boxing when fighters had to “come up to scratch” and “toe the line” to slug it out with each other, giving us both those phrase OED on “scratch”: > [@](#): > > ``` > 5. Sporting. A line or mark drawn as an indication of a boundary or starting-point; in Cricket, a ‘crease’ (obs.); in Pugilism, the line drawn across the ring, to which boxers are brought for an encounter. Hence in various phrases (often fig.), as to come up to (the) scratch, up to the required standard; to bring to the scratch, to toe the scratch, etc. > > ``` The quotes indicate a use in boxing, but not an exclusive one. ---
**Author:** ![somethingblue2u](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@somethingblue2u](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somethingblue2u)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/10 "2002-11-29T01:48:02Z")
It’s tow the line ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/11 "2002-11-29T01:57:15Z")
At least **somethingblue2u** stands up for his beliefs. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/12 "2002-11-29T04:12:29Z")
Here is some pure speculation: The origin of the phrase “toe the line” is naval and ancient. When a ship’s company fell in for formation each watch would line up on their own side of the ship (starboard watch on the right hand side, larboard watch on the left hand side). When the men fell in they would stand with their toes touching a seam between the deck planks–thus they would toe the line. Some of us old guys remember toeing the yellow line on the red linoleum floor of a barracks, and lining up foot lockers along that line. Tow line is a rope from a vessel to another vessel or some other force like a mule that pulls the vessel along. Thus tow path along a canal where the mule would walk, or tow boat is a boat that pulls barges up and down a canal or river. On the Mississippi tow boats push barges but that is another problem. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/13 "2002-11-29T04:25:57Z")
Umm, perhaps my memory is wrong, or that different ships have different names, but isn’t the left side of a ship the “port” side? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/14 "2002-11-29T04:31:33Z")
[Larboard](http://www.bartleby.com/61/2/L0050200.html) is a nautical term meaning “port” or “on the port side”; the dictionary doesn’t label it so, but I think it’s now somewhat archaic. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/15 "2002-11-29T05:27:00Z")
By the way… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spiffo \* > **"tow the line". (as in Tow the company line)** I think you’re mixing your metaphors. You can “toe the line,” and you can “adhere to the company line,” but to my knowledge you cannot “toe the company line.” By the definitions offered above (which I had never known before, actually…), “toing the company line” would mean stepping up to fight with the company, but phrases containing the words “company line” usually tend to indicate doing something according to the wishes of the company. Seems you’ve taken the bull by the horns of a dilemma, as Opus once said. ---
**Author:** ![johncole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@johncole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johncole)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/16 "2002-11-29T08:47:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Speaker for the Dead \* > \*\*Umm, perhaps my memory is wrong, or that different ships have different names, but isn’t the left side of a ship the “port” side? \*\* What **MEBuckner** said, and: way back, before hanging rudders were invented, ships steered by using a large oar slung at the rear of the ship on the right-hand side _hence “starboard” from the same roots as “steer board”_ if the ship was tied up to a wharf for unloading the left-hand side would be against the quay to prevent damage to the steering mechanism, and many of the old merchant ships had a loading (lading) port on the left _hence “larboard” from the same roots as “ladeboard”_ The use of the word “port” to describe the left side was introduced to prevent confusion between larboard/starboard. One early use is attributed to Rear Admiral Robert Fitzroy in HMS Beagle (sounds familiar) in 1828 (Darwin was aboard 1831/1836). In the Royal Navy the official change-in-name took place in 1844. source: The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea P.S “toe the line”, not “tow the line” ---
**Author:** ![mrcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@mrcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrcrow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/17 "2002-11-29T12:05:05Z")
1 To adhere to doctrines or rules conscientiously; conform. 2 Sports & Games To touch a mark or line with the toe or hands in readiness for the start of a race or competition. these are from [http://www.wordwizard.com/](http://www.wordwizard.com/) they seem to bear out all toe linings. cant find anything on tow yet:) ---
**Author:** ![mrcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@mrcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrcrow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/18 "2002-11-29T12:08:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*Here is some pure speculation: > > The origin of the phrase “toe the line” is naval and ancient. When a ship’s company fell in for formation each watch would line up on their own side of the ship (starboard watch on the right hand side, larboard watch on the left hand side). When the men fell in they would stand with their toes touching a seam between the deck planks–thus they would toe the line. > > Some of us old guys remember toeing the yellow line on the red linoleum floor of a barracks, and lining up foot lockers along that line. > > Tow line is a rope from a vessel to another vessel or some other force like a mule that pulls the vessel along. Thus tow path along a canal where the mule would walk, or tow boat is a boat that pulls barges up and down a canal or river. On the Mississippi tow boats push barges but that is another problem. \*\* [unspeculated](http://www.fortogden.com/nauticalterms.html) Toe the Line - When called to line up at attention, the ship’s crew would form up with their toes touching a seam in the deck planking. ---
**Author:** ![shlinki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7bcc69/32.png) [@shlinki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shlinki)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/toe-or-tow-the-line/139414/19 "2002-12-02T01:09:58Z")
## quote: ## Originally posted by ladydisco Am I the only one who thought it meant “to get really close to crossing the line” (as in ‘go too far’)? ladydisco, you’re _not_ the only one. I thought that was the phrase’s meaning also [as in ‘to toe the line between high fashion and bad taste’ etc] - i have only ever heard the phrase used in this context in general conversation anyway. maybe it changes meaning if used like that, i.e. ‘to toe the line between [something] and [something else]’. I like it. I think I’ll keep it!