# Tokio
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 6, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725 "2007-10-06T03:47:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/1 "2007-10-06T03:47:22Z")
When did ‘Tokyo’ finally replace ‘Tokio’ as the spelling of the Japanese city (at least in English)?
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2007, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/2 "2007-10-06T06:41:51Z")
That I can tell, “Tokyo” with a ‘y’ has been the proper [Romanization](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanisation#Japanese) since 1867. The only point of contention is whether it should have bars over the o’s, doubled o’s, or or u’s after them.
A quick Google Imaging is only bringing up maps from the late 19th century. And noting that the city was named Edo up until 1868, Tokio would appear to be a very short-term seat-of-the-pants usage that got in because new maps needed to be made and the standard hadn’t spread yet.
So essentially outside of some maps that were published between 1868-~1880(?) that were wrong, it’s always been Tokyo.
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2007, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/3 "2007-10-06T08:51:32Z")
It might be worth noting that Tokyo in Dutch is written “Tokio” and that there were originally more Japanese who spoke Dutch than English.
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### Author:  [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/4 "2007-10-06T11:05:34Z")
Ironic, then, that Google ads are coming up for “Japanischkurse in Tokio” and “Hostel, Herberge in Tokio”.
And whence Tokio Fire & Marine?
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### Author:  [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/5 "2007-10-06T11:24:01Z")
I haven’t seen it written as TOKIO in English in any official signage in recent years. However, TOKIO is the name of a Japanese [boy band](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokio_%28band%29) .
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### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/6 "2007-10-07T02:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=JpnDude]
I haven’t seen it written as TOKIO in English in any official signage in recent years. However, TOKIO is the name of a Japanese [boy band](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokio_%28band%29) .
[/QUOTE]
In watching Ken Burns’ _The War_ last week, one of the WWII-era U.S. newspapers spelled it as “TOKIO” in one of the headlines shown in the presentation.
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### Author:  [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/7 "2007-10-07T03:04:19Z")
[QUOTE=robby]
In watching Ken Burns’ _The War_ last week, one of the WWII-era U.S. newspapers spelled it as “TOKIO” in one of the headlines shown in the presentation.
[/QUOTE]
It was also spelt that way in [an advertisement](http://dowhatnow.typepad.com/do_what_now/2007/10/may-1942-moto-2.html) back then.
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/8 "2007-10-07T03:10:24Z")
There’s a Tokyo-based department-store chain called Tokyu. I’ve always wondered about that spelling. There’s one or two here and even one in Hawaii, or used to be. Is Tokyu a Japanese word???
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### Author:  [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/9 "2007-10-07T03:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
There’s a Tokyo-based department-store chain called Tokyu. I’ve always wondered about that spelling. There’s one or two here and even one in Hawaii, or used to be. Is Tokyu a Japanese word???
[/QUOTE]
**Tokyu** is a portmanteau for the complete company name _Tokyo Kyuko Dentetsu_ (Tokyo Express Railway). Simply take the first kanji character in Tokyo 東京 and the first kanji in Kyuko 急行 to make Tokyu 東急. The department stores are part of the same group of companies under the “Tokyu Group.”
> **[Tokyu Corporation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyu_Corporation)**
>
> Tokyu Corporation (東急株式会社, Tōkyū kabushiki-gaisha), a contraction of and formerly Tōkyō Kyūkō Dentetsu kabushiki gaisha (東京急行電鉄株式会社; "Tokyo Express Electric Railway Stock Company") until 2 September 2019, is a Japanese keiretsu or conglomerate headquartered in Shibuya, Tokyo. While a multinational corporation, its main operation is the Tokyu Railways Co., Ltd. (ja:東急電鉄株式会社, Tōkyū Dentetsu kabushiki gaisha), a wholly owned subsidiary operating railways in the Greater Tokyo Area. The oldest predece...
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/10 "2007-10-07T03:28:00Z")
And of course, there’s a Wikipedia article. :smack:
But thanks for the info. The article calls Tokyu an “upscale department store.” That’s not so true in Bangkok anymore. I remember when it was considered upscale, but it’s since been eclipsed by five-star department stores like Siam Paragon and The Emporium. Tokyu is firmly middle class now. A nice place, though.
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### Author:  [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/11 "2007-10-07T06:11:11Z")
A relevant point:
“Kio” (though I don’t think this is a real Japanese word nor do I think it appears in any Japanese word) would, on standard romanizations, be interpreted as two syllables. ki + o.
“Kyo” (which is part of a lot of Japanese words) is to be interpreted as a single syllable. kyo.
Here are all the Japanese syllables that start with K:
ka
ki
ku
ke
ko
kyu
kyo
I suspect the ky in “kyu” means in fact, whatchamacallit, “palatalized k?” Som’n’ like 'at.
-FrL-
(“Ryu” from the old Street Fighter games is not “Rai-you,” but rather, a single syllable, “Ru” with the “r” kind of “flattened out.”)
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### Author:  [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/12 "2007-10-07T11:03:14Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
And of course, there’s a Wikipedia article. :smack:
But thanks for the info. The article calls Tokyu an “upscale department store.” That’s not so true in Bangkok anymore. I remember when it was considered upscale, but it’s since been eclipsed by five-star department stores like Siam Paragon and The Emporium. Tokyu is firmly middle class now. A nice place, though.
[/QUOTE]
Asking my better half here, she agrees with you. According to her, Tokyu Department Stores aren’t necessarily considered “upscale” anymore such as Mitsukoshi or Matsuzakaya.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/13 "2007-10-07T12:36:42Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock]
“Kyo” (which is part of a lot of Japanese words) is to be interpreted as a single syllable. kyo.
[/QUOTE]
Now that you mention it, I do hear people pronouncing it ‘toh-kee-oh’ from time to time.
I’d always had the impression that that it was spelled ‘Tokio’ before WWII, and as the war raged and people heard it more it began to be spelled ‘Tokyo’ to reflect the proper pronunciation. But then I saw the 1945 newspaper in the documentary and wondered when it finally did change.
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/14 "2007-10-07T14:56:24Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.]
Now that you mention it, I do hear people pronouncing it ‘toh-kee-oh’ from time to time.
I’d always had the impression that that it was spelled ‘Tokio’ before WWII, and as the war raged and people heard it more it began to be spelled ‘Tokyo’ to reflect the proper pronunciation. But then I saw the 1945 newspaper in the documentary and wondered when it finally did change.
[/QUOTE]
I did a search using my Newspaperarchive database. They recently did a search engine/database “upgrade,” and the results we get now are rather wonky. But, the relative number of hits are still statistically significant. (Remember, this databases is mainly composed of small-medium US newspapers, with a very small smattering of Canadian-British-major US)
[ul]
term -----------Tokio— Tokyo
1880-1900— 11,500 — 676
1901-1920— 70,063 — 5,519
1921-1930— 58,450 — 197,561\*\*
1931-1940— 41,785 — 119,810
1941-1950— 28,349 — 315,170
1951-1970— 13,129 — 462,547
[/ul]
You can draw your own conclusions about when it “finally” changed, but it sure didn’t change wholesale before the 1920’s or so.
Now, I’m sure if you did a similar search on scholarly publications, you’d find it changed much earlier. Just a WAG.
\*sorry about the result of my trying to make a nice chart. But I think you can figure it out.
\*\*Having done a search of the NY Times database a bit later, I tend to doubt this figure. Weird database.
Scroll down to see the results of the NYTimes search.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/15 "2007-10-07T15:37:50Z")
Hm. I wonder how the numbers are distributed in the 1951-1970 row? 1951, being soon after the war, wouldn’t surprise me by having a large number of ‘Tokio’ spellings. But by 1970 I’d expect that spelling to be rare.
Apropos of nothing, when I was three and four years old I thought it was great fun to say ‘Tokyo Tower!’ (We went there at least once, and I was fascinated by it.)
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tokio/421725/16 "2007-10-07T16:18:19Z")
Here’s a more useful(and probably more accurate) result from searching the Historical NY Times. Their optical character reader is far better than the one at N’archive.
[ul]
--------------------Tokio --------Tokyo
1850-1899-------- 1718--------41
1900-1910-------- 4169---------67
1911-1920-------- 2783--------107
1921-1930-------- 8708--------439
1931-1940-------- 1484--------18,188
[/ul] So, somewhere in the 1930’s, the “best” newspaper in the US got the word.