# Told You So! (Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104 "2009-08-20T18:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/21 "2009-08-20T19:51:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Change it! Goddamn it! Change it! (Why, oh, why, don’t we have a “screaming, jumping up and down” smiley?) > > We need an honest conservative party, a car needs brakes just like it needs a motor. We on the left need, repeat, NEED to have our ideas examined and challenged. I have no problem with honest practicality and skepticism, nobody is so smart that every idea is golden. > > Besides, we need someone to blame when we vote down the prosthetic hands for gay whales legislation. “Hey, we wanted to, but the conservatives wouldn’t let us!” > > The assholes that destroyed the Republican Party didn’t just fuck you up, they fucked us all up! > > I can’t go to their caucuses, they’ve got a “shoot on sight” warrant out for me! You, not so much… OK - just because you asked nicely and warned me about the botter paper with Bush’s face on it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/22 "2009-08-20T19:55:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Could it have been someone else? Scooter Libby? Karen Hughes? Jim Nicholson? I would venture that Ridge would’ve blown off any of them if he thought they were operating on their own, not consider resigning. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/23 "2009-08-20T19:58:05Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Oh c’mon! If Libby, Hughes or any other flunky pushed him to raise the alert do you really think for one second it didn’t come from higher up the chain of command? Really? Give me a break. I don’t know. And neither do you. Only one of us, however, is claiming that we’re certain that what we don’t don’t is absolutely certainly true. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/24 "2009-08-20T20:00:00Z")
Whenever a member of the Bush administration comes out with a critical book, it is SOP to question his credibility and motives. (“That doesn’t sound like the Scott McClellan I know,” or words to that effect.) It will be interesting to see what happens when Cheney’s book comes out. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/25 "2009-08-20T20:08:03Z")
From [Salon](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/08/20/ambinder/index.html): > [@](#): > > But that is how our political culture works. Throughout the Bush years, those who said patently true things were continuously dismissed as fringe, conspiracy-driven leftist-losers: those who questioned whether Saddam really had WMDs; those who argued that the invasion of Iraq would lead to long-term military bases in that country; those who worried that warrantless eavesdropping and Patriot Act powers would lead to abuses; those who opposed the war in Afghanistan on the ground that it would be unwinnable, etc. etc. > > Having been proven right about all of those things hasn’t changed perceptions any at all. As Ambinder’s comments today reflect, the paramount unchangeable Beltway Truth is that those who distrust government claims are unSerious Fringe Leftist Losers. Even when they turn out to be right, they’re still that. And no matter how many times journalists like Ambinder are proven wrong in “giv[ing] the government the benefit of some doubt, even having learned lessons about giving the government that benefit,” they still continue to do it and believe it is the right and responsible thing to do. > > Powerful political leaders are, as Jay Rosen often puts it, the ruling priests in the journalists’ church of Savviness. Trusting the politically powerful is the establishment religion and carrying forth their message is the prime function of establishment journalists (note how Newsweek’s Jonathan Alter, just two months ago, argued that the “public option” was crucial but then, like so many liberal pundits eager to maintain and build close relations with the White House, got dutifully on board with the White House message, by completely and shamelessly changing course the minute the White House did). Distrusting the statements and actions of government leaders was once the central value of our political system and of basic journalism. But now, especially in the eyes of establishment journalists, it is the hallmark of the unSerious, fringe, leftist loser, no matter how many times it is proven right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/26 "2009-08-20T20:09:19Z")
> [@bup](#): > > **Bricker** , how do you feel about someone above Tom Ridge in the Bush administration ordering a change in the terrorist security level to scare votes out of people? Even the cite offered to start this thread doesn’t say anyone was ordered. He says he was “pushed to.” He didn’t but he was encouraged to. He doesn’t say it was someone “above him.” So how I feel about that depends entirely on who did it, and how strong a “push” it was. EXAMPLE A: “Mr. Secretary, I’m calling on behalf of the White House communications group, and we wanted to get a heads-up on the threat level for next week.” “It’s Yellow, and I don’t see anything on the horizon to change it.” “Are you sure?” “Yes, why?” “You sure it isn’t going to be Orange?” “Yes.” “Completely sure? Since there’s an election, and all…” “No. I’m completely sure.” “Ok.” (pause) “How sure, again? Because Orange might help us…” -click- “Mr. Secretary? Hello?” EXAMPLE B: “Tom, Dick Cheney here. We’re going to need the threat level elevated to Orange on November 1st. Say it’s Al-Queda, or some shit like that. Frankly I don’t care. I just want Orange on headlines, got it?” “Mr. Vice-President, I don’t change the threat level based on–” “Don’t give me any shit, Tom. If you don’t want to be back in Pennsylvania writing a book about the shortest term of any cabinet secretary this century, I better damn well see ‘Orange’ while I’m sipping my coffee Monday morning.” -click- Example B is despicable. Example A is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/27 "2009-08-20T20:12:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know. > > And neither do you. > > Only one of us, however, is claiming that we’re certain that what we don’t don’t is absolutely certainly true. Oh, face it, you “don’t don’t” all the time. All you do is don’t. So we don’t have a videotaped and notarized order from the President personally to Ridge saying he must, despite all’s that holy, perform a political act from a position of power within the U.S. government. So what? To you this is the absence of evidence, and therefore total exoneration, while to any observer without powerful biases, this is more than sufficient evidence. I’m comfortable with what we have, both to indict Bush and to add to the partisan nature of your defense of Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/28 "2009-08-20T20:13:04Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I would venture that Ridge would’ve blown off any of them if he thought they were operating on their own, not consider resigning. Yeah. I know how much Bricker hates the the false dilemma fallacy so I’ll offer FIVE options 1. The order came from Bush or Cheney 2. The order came from a lower level flunky on behalf of Bush or Cheney 3. The order came from a lower level flunky all on his or her own with no knowledge or input from Bush or Cheney 4. The information in the link is incorrect 5. Ridge is lying We have no evidence as of yet that either #4 or #5 are correct. #1 and #2 are just as awful to contemplate. Hell, I’d say #2 is even worse because of how weasely you’ve got to be to not even have the balls to make the phone call yourself. Bricker suggests that it could be #3. Let’s assess the liklihood of that. Tom Ridge was the Secretary of the newly created Department of Homeland Security. He serves at the pleasure of, and answers only to, The President of the United States. So some pissant calls him up and says “hey, why don’t we change the color rating from green to yellow just to mess with the election?” I believe Tom’s only response would be “are you fucking kidding me? Go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/29 "2009-08-20T20:16:23Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > So some pissant calls him up and says “hey, why don’t we change the color rating from green to yellow just to mess with the election?” I believe Tom’s only response would be “are you fucking kidding me? Go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on.” And then he writes a book describing the episode. And the publisher summarizes that event as “…was pushed to raise the security alert on the eve of President Bush’s re-election…” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/30 "2009-08-20T20:16:24Z")
Ridge headed the “Dept. of Homeland Security” He did not answer to secretaries and lesser officials. . Someone who told him to change alert levels near an election, would have to be very high up the ladder. Very high. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/31 "2009-08-20T20:18:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Only one of us, however, is claiming that we’re certain that what we don’t don’t is absolutely certainly true. \*Last edited by Bricker; Today at 12:58 PM. \* How unintelligible was that sentence _before_ you edited it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/32 "2009-08-20T20:19:03Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > OK - just because you asked nicely and warned me about the botter paper with Bush’s face on it. Do it! Outstanding! Go, **Algher**! Kick ass, take no prisoners! If you never believe another word I say, believe this: I mean it, do it for our country! (But, shamefaced full disclosure…it probably wasn’t me, I haven’t had any truck with blotter paper/window panes, anything LSD since before the Err Apparent was born. Acid is pretentious, it keeps pretending its telling you something important. Now, some 'shrooms, get away from the city, some fishing, maybe, listen to the Goddess hum songs you can’t \*quite \*make out… Oh, yeah.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/33 "2009-08-20T20:19:32Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Oh, face it, you “don’t don’t” all the time. All you do is don’t. So we don’t have a videotaped and notarized order from the President personally to Ridge saying he must, despite all’s that holy, perform a political act from a position of power within the U.S. government. So what? > > To you this is the absence of evidence, and therefore total exoneration, while to any observer without powerful biases, this is more than sufficient evidence. I’m comfortable with what we have, both to indict Bush and to add to the partisan nature of your defense of Bush. Not at all. If Ridge’s book says that Bush or Cheney ordered him to do it, that’s good enough for me. What’s not good enough for me is the publisher’s summary: “he was pushed to raise the security alert on the eve of President Bush’s re-election.” It doesn’t say who did it. So of our two positions, which is the more reasonable? Without the slightest hint of the specific circumstances, you’re absolutely willing to say it was Bush or Cheney. I’m saying I want to read Ridge say it, specifically, and then I have no trouble accepting it as true. Which one of us is being more partisan, and which more reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/34 "2009-08-20T20:19:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And then he writes a book describing the episode. And the publisher summarizes that event as “…was pushed to raise the security alert on the eve of President Bush’s re-election…” Mistakes were made. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/35 "2009-08-20T20:20:33Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > \*Last edited by Bricker; Today at 12:58 PM. \* > > How unintelligible was that sentence _before_ you edited it? It was in Urdu, punctuated by aboriginal click language. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/36 "2009-08-20T20:22:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Ridge headed the “Dept. of Homeland Security” He did not answer to secretaries and lesser officials. . Someone who told him to change alert levels near an election, would have to be very high up the ladder. Very high. Don’t be absurd. I know you know very little, but didn’t you ever watch the West Wing? In that show, what level of White House staffers passed on information and guidance to the executive departments? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/37 "2009-08-20T20:22:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even the cite offered to start this thread doesn’t say anyone was ordered. He says he was “pushed to.” He didn’t but he was encouraged to. He doesn’t say it was someone “above him.” > > So how I feel about that depends entirely on who did it, and how strong a “push” it was. > > EXAMPLE A: > > “Mr. Secretary, I’m calling on behalf of the White House communications group, and we wanted to get a heads-up on the threat level for next week.” > > “It’s Yellow, and I don’t see anything on the horizon to change it.” > > “Are you sure?” > > “Yes, why?” > > “You sure it isn’t going to be Orange?” > > “Yes.” > > “Completely sure? Since there’s an election, and all…” > > “No. I’m completely sure.” > > “Ok.” (pause) “How sure, again? Because Orange might help us…” > > -click- > > “Mr. Secretary? Hello?” > > EXAMPLE B: > > “Tom, Dick Cheney here. We’re going to need the threat level elevated to Orange on November 1st. Say it’s Al-Queda, or some shit like that. Frankly I don’t care. I just want Orange on headlines, got it?” > > “Mr. Vice-President, I don’t change the threat level based on–” > > “Don’t give me any shit, Tom. If you don’t want to be back in Pennsylvania writing a book about the shortest term of any cabinet secretary this century, I better damn well see ‘Orange’ while I’m sipping my coffee Monday morning.” -click- > > Example B is despicable. Example A is nothing. Man’s got a point, there. “Pushed” is too unclear. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/38 "2009-08-20T20:23:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Example B is despicable. Example A is nothing. [Really? Example A is nothing?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/39 "2009-08-20T20:24:54Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [Really? Example A is nothing?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) I’m not really sure I follow your argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/40 "2009-08-20T20:25:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even the cite offered to start this thread doesn’t say anyone was ordered. He says he was “pushed to.” He didn’t but he was encouraged to. He doesn’t say it was someone “above him.” > > So how I feel about that depends entirely on who did it, and how strong a “push” it was. > > EXAMPLE A: > > “Mr. Secretary, I’m calling on behalf of the White House communications group, and we wanted to get a heads-up on the threat level for next week.” > > “It’s Yellow, and I don’t see anything on the horizon to change it.” > > “Are you sure?” > > “Yes, why?” > > “You sure it isn’t going to be Orange?” > > “Yes.” > > “Completely sure? Since there’s an election, and all…” > > “No. I’m completely sure.” > > “Ok.” (pause) “How sure, again? Because Orange might help us…” > > -click- > > “Mr. Secretary? Hello?” > > EXAMPLE B: > > “Tom, Dick Cheney here. We’re going to need the threat level elevated to Orange on November 1st. Say it’s Al-Queda, or some shit like that. Frankly I don’t care. I just want Orange on headlines, got it?” > > “Mr. Vice-President, I don’t change the threat level based on–” > > “Don’t give me any shit, Tom. If you don’t want to be back in Pennsylvania writing a book about the shortest term of any cabinet secretary this century, I better damn well see ‘Orange’ while I’m sipping my coffee Monday morning.” -click- > > Example B is despicable. Example A is nothing. I can totally see how case A would make him consider resigning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=3)