# Told You So! (Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104 "2009-08-20T18:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/41 "2009-08-20T20:27:31Z")
Alright, [this cite says it was Rumsfeld and Ashcroft](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h1W_dkUJZmLCnpf-AJQwNa0N-ptg). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/42 "2009-08-20T20:32:09Z")
Or, perhaps, “pushed” is the toned-down term the publisher felt comfortable with. So, what we got is either reprehensible or unspeakably vile. Told you so. (Not you so much, **Lib** , just a general…) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/43 "2009-08-20T20:32:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not really sure I follow your argument. Example A (without the last sentence where the good guy refuses) is how most terrible things are accomplished in society. Example A happens all the time, but 65% of people will obey higher-ups even when they believe the results are potentially fatal. How do you feel about Rumsfeld and Ashcroft _both_ going to Ridge with the conversation you made up - “Hey Tom, it sure would be nice if the terror level was orange, with the election coming up?” Are you OK with that? Do you think it’s despicable? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/44 "2009-08-20T20:42:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Or, perhaps, “pushed” is the toned-down term the publisher felt comfortable with. So, what we got is either reprehensible or unspeakably vile. > > Told you so. (Not you so much, **Lib** , just a general…) I’m pretty sure it’s possible to be both reprehensible and unspeakable vile. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/45 "2009-08-20T20:46:55Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > I’m pretty sure it’s possible to be both reprehensible and unspeakable vile. [It is.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/46 "2009-08-20T20:48:52Z")
Well, I honestly think Dick Cheney looks like the original Penguin on Batman. Back when all the characters were silly, except Robin. So I wouldn’t put it past him. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/47 "2009-08-20T20:53:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t be absurd. I know you know very little, but didn’t you ever watch the West Wing? In that show, what level of White House staffers passed on information and guidance to the executive departments? And that information and guidance is very clearly not coming from them, they’re simply the messengers. I know you’re not this stupid. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/48 "2009-08-20T20:56:01Z")
I sometimes wonder whether I have as hard a time admitting when I’ve been supporting an incorrect position as some other people here do. Seriously! It’s worrying. The internet, it does things to the mind, and I don’t know if I’d even notice it happening… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/49 "2009-08-20T20:56:44Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I can totally see how case A would make him consider resigning. _sigh_ EXAMPLE A (later that day): “No, Tom, I won’t fire her. She made a mistake. She heard us talking about how a rainy day on the East Coast and a threat level of Orange might blunt Kerry’s edge enough, and she thought we wanted you to change it.” “Mr. President, the threat level can’t ever be politicized. I can’t work for an administration that doesn’t–” “Now, Tom, don’t get a burr under your saddle. No one’s politicizing anything. What we have here is a low-lever staffer who thought she was doing something we wanted. The problem’s been fixed.” ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/50 "2009-08-20T21:01:05Z")
You rig an election with the terror level you have, you don’t rig an election with the terror level you don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/51 "2009-08-20T21:01:18Z")
Well, well, just this morning Bricker was incensed that anyone could dare regard him as less than impartiality incarnate. Here, Brick is example 2 for you. In less than 12 hours. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/52 "2009-08-20T21:01:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > \*\*Ridge admits Bush administration pushed to raise security alert for political reasons on eve of re-election. \*\* So he was “pushed,” but did he actually do it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/53 "2009-08-20T21:03:13Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Alright, [this cite says it was Rumsfeld and Ashcroft](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h1W_dkUJZmLCnpf-AJQwNa0N-ptg). Well, then it wasn’t Bush and Cheney. And I’m prepared to say (assuming this to be true) that it was absolutely reprehensible for Ashcroft and Rumsfeld to do that. It was a complete betrayal of their responsibilities. Scum. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/54 "2009-08-20T21:04:38Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > It will be interesting to see what happens when Cheney’s book comes out. I get the feeling that Cheney’s book will amount to “you’re goddamned right we did it\*, so what”. - it being any of the alleged Bush White House shenanigans. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/55 "2009-08-20T21:05:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, well, just this morning Bricker was incensed that anyone could dare regard him as less than impartiality incarnate. > > Here, Brick is example 2 for you. In less than 12 hours. On the contrary. You wanted me to conclude, from hearing that Ridge was pushed, that Bush and Cheney were responsible. I declined. Oh, and hey! Now we see it’s Rumsfeld and Ashcroft that did the deed. NOT Bush and Cheney. And now that this info is added to the mix, I have no problem in strongly condemning them. Calling them scum, in fact. To you, a more impartial approach would have been to immediatelty agree that Bush and Cheney were guilty? ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/56 "2009-08-20T21:09:31Z")
How many people have to take the fall for Bush&Cheney before some kind kind of top-level shenanigans become apparent? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/57 "2009-08-20T21:19:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ > > EXAMPLE A (later that day): > > “No, Tom, I won’t fire her. She made a mistake. She heard us talking about how a rainy day on the East Coast and a threat level of Orange might blunt Kerry’s edge enough, and she thought we wanted you to change it.” > > “Mr. President, the threat level can’t ever be politicized. I can’t work for an administration that doesn’t–” > > “Now, Tom, don’t get a burr under your saddle. No one’s politicizing anything. What we have here is a low-lever staffer who thought she was doing something we wanted. The problem’s been fixed.” So example A was weak because he did _not_ think it was an order from above, but now that you need to have him (foolishly) considering resignation over it, it suddenly _was_ believed to be an order from above. Slick. Of course, what you _now_ have is a situation where all that’s happened is that Tom’s been shown to be a paranoid moron. I can totally see how that case would be something he’d want to write about that in a book, eh? _Very_ plausible secnario here. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/58 "2009-08-20T21:21:07Z")
_THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION_ was responsible for this, and the actions of Ashcroft and Rumsfeld reflect directly on President Bush. How about that? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/59 "2009-08-20T21:21:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary. You wanted me to conclude, from hearing that Ridge was pushed, that Bush and Cheney were responsible. I declined. > > Oh, and hey! Now we see it’s Rumsfeld and Ashcroft that did the deed. NOT Bush and Cheney. > > And now that this info is added to the mix, I have no problem in strongly condemning them. Calling them scum, in fact. > > To you, a more impartial approach would have been to immediatelty agree that Bush and Cheney were guilty? Whose administration was is? Was it Rumsfeld/Ashcroft '04? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/60 "2009-08-20T21:25:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary. You wanted me to conclude, from hearing that Ridge was pushed, that Bush and Cheney were responsible. I declined. > > Oh, and hey! Now we see it’s Rumsfeld and Ashcroft that did the deed. NOT Bush and Cheney. How does the fact that the message was delivered by Rumsfeld and Ashcroft disprove the theory that Bush and Cheney might have originated the idea? I mean, it seems a little unlikely that _both_ Rumsfeld and Ashcroft spontaneously and independenlty came up with and acted on the idea at around the same time. The presence of two sources for this strongly suggests to me that one or both of the men got the idea from another source. Admittedly, Rumsfeld or Ashcroft could have thought it up and passed the idea on to the other…but can we rule out them _both_ getting the word from another source? And do we have any logical _reason_ to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=4)