# Told You So! (Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104 "2009-08-20T18:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/61 "2009-08-20T21:27:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Don’t be absurd. I know you know very little, but didn’t you ever watch the West Wing? In that show, what level of White House staffers passed on information and guidance to the executive departments? You cite West Wing. Well how can I respond to that ignorance. I thought it was a TV show. Forgive me for not understanding it was a documentary. You are one thick human being. Note; If Rummy told Ridge do the level raising, how does that mean Bush and Cheney had nothing to do with it or sent Rummy to do it. It would be a big deal not something a lackey would do on his own. Or did West Wing cover that too? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/62 "2009-08-20T21:29:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. If Ridge’s book says that Bush or Cheney ordered him to do it, that’s good enough for me. > > What’s not good enough for me is the publisher’s summary: “he was pushed to raise the security alert on the eve of President Bush’s re-election.” It doesn’t say who did it. > > So of our two positions, which is the more reasonable? Without the slightest hint of the specific circumstances, you’re absolutely willing to say it was Bush or Cheney. I’m saying I want to read Ridge say it, specifically, and then I have no trouble accepting it as true. > > Which one of us is being more partisan, and which more reasonable? Am I saying that Bush or Cheney gave him a direct order? I am not. I’m saying that someone with a political agenda on Bush or Cheney’s behalf told Ridge to up the alert level for Bush/Cheney’s political well-being, and was not fired for t when Bush/Cheney found out. They didn’t find out? Okay, then let’s talk about being clueless to the point of impeachable incompetence. They did find out and weren’t outraged? Then we’re talking plausible deniability here, and to me that’s evidence of passive collusion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/63 "2009-08-20T21:35:15Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > _THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION_ was responsible for this, and the actions of Ashcroft and Rumsfeld reflect directly on President Bush. > > How about that? > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Whose administration was is? Was it Rumsfeld/Ashcroft '04? There’s a huge gulf between “the buck stops here”-type responsibility, and their direct, active involvement. “Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney” seemed to suggest the men, not the whole administration. But I wasn’t sure. So I asked: > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but are you sure it was Bush or Cheney that pushed him? Could it have been someone else? Scooter Libby? Karen Hughes? Jim Nicholson? > [@begbert2](#): > > How does the fact that the message was delivered by Rumsfeld and Ashcroft disprove the theory that Bush and Cheney might have originated the idea? It doesn’t. But neither does it prove it. And, like any other proposition, it’s for the person offering the proposition to meet the burden of persuasion. Your question raises what’s termed _argumentum ad ignoratium_: “We don’t know they didn’t, so they did!” ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/64 "2009-08-20T21:36:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary. You wanted me to conclude, from hearing that Ridge was pushed, that Bush and Cheney were responsible. I declined. > > Oh, and hey! Now we see it’s Rumsfeld and Ashcroft that did the deed. NOT Bush and Cheney. > > And now that this info is added to the mix, I have no problem in strongly condemning them. Calling them scum, in fact. > > To you, a more impartial approach would have been to immediatelty agree that Bush and Cheney were guilty? It defies credulity that Ashcroft and Rummy could’ve made a move like this and not have Bush or at least Cheney know about it. And even under the far-fetched possibility that they did, the Bush and Cheney administration created a political culture within the White House that made Ashcroft and Rumsfeld believe they could do so with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/65 "2009-08-20T21:37:02Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Am I saying that Bush or Cheney gave him a direct order? I am not. I’m saying that someone with a political agenda on Bush or Cheney’s behalf told Ridge to up the alert level for Bush/Cheney’s political well-being, and was not fired for t when Bush/Cheney found out. > > They didn’t find out? Okay, then let’s talk about being clueless to the point of impeachable incompetence. They did find out and weren’t outraged? Then we’re talking plausible deniability here, and to me that’s evidence of passive collusion. Sure. It’s evidence of a “Who will rid me of this turbulent priest” type atmosphere. But I’d like to know when they found out, and how soon after that Ashfeld and Rumsfeld were gone… because, you know, they DID leave the administration. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/66 "2009-08-20T21:39:04Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > It defies credulity that Ashcroft and Rummy could’ve made a move like this and not have Bush or at least Cheney know about it. > > And even under the far-fetched possibility that they did, the Bush and Cheney administration created a political culture within the White House that made Ashcroft and Rumsfeld believe they could do so with impunity. For eight years, I heard how stupid, clueless, and incompetent Bush was. An idiot, a smirking monkey with no real talent and certainly no real intelligence. Now he’s so plugged into things, and so aware of every move that it defies credulity he wouldn’t have been on top of every such move? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/67 "2009-08-20T21:40:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > To you, a more impartial approach would have been to immediatelty agree that Bush and Cheney were guilty? I’d like an answer to this question, please. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/68 "2009-08-20T21:40:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@bup](#): > > > > Alright, this cite says it was Rumsfeld and Ashcroft. > > Well, then it wasn’t Bush and Cheney. It still could be. You know that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/69 "2009-08-20T21:44:09Z")
No, it was Cheney. We’re pretty much finding out that Cheney ran everything important. I’ve come around to the conclusion in recent months that W was mostly just a well-intentioned simpleton (if a bit grandiose and moralistic) whose strings were being pulled by Cheney and others. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/70 "2009-08-20T21:53:05Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It still could be. You know that. True. I should have said, “Well, then from this evidence, we can’t conclude it was Bush or Cheney.” ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/71 "2009-08-20T21:57:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > How does the fact that the message was delivered by Rumsfeld and Ashcroft disprove the theory that Bush and Cheney might have originated the idea? > > It doesn’t. But neither does it prove it. And, like any other proposition, it’s for the person offering the proposition to meet the burden of persuasion. Your question raises what’s termed _argumentum ad ignoratium_: “We don’t know they didn’t, so they did!” Why didn’t you quote the entirety of that post you responded to? Here it is, for reference: > [@begbert2](#): > > How does the fact that the message was delivered by Rumsfeld and Ashcroft disprove the theory that Bush and Cheney might have originated the idea? I mean, it seems a little unlikely that _both_ Rumsfeld and Ashcroft spontaneously and independenlty came up with and acted on the idea at around the same time. The presence of two sources for this strongly suggests to me that one or both of the men got the idea from another source. Admittedly, Rumsfeld or Ashcroft could have thought it up and passed the idea on to the other…but can we rule out them _both_ getting the word from another source? And do we have any logical _reason_ to? Could it be because it makes a good argument that it is NOT plausible that the order didn’t come from above? Which would make your accusation of _argumentum ad ignoratium_ pretty silly, now wouldn’t it? No, that can’t _possibly_ be why you clipped the quote. Must have been some other reason. Surely. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/72 "2009-08-20T21:58:32Z")
@Bricker I think you might have a problem with your line of argument. According to the Department of Homeland Security, [Presidential Directive 3](http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/laws/gc_1214508631313.shtm): The higher the Threat Condition, the greater the risk of a terrorist attack. Risk includes both the probability of an attack occurring and its potential gravity. Threat Conditions shall be assigned by the Attorney General in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security. Except in exigent circumstances, the Attorney General shall seek the views of the appropriate Homeland Security Principals or their subordinates, and other parties as appropriate, on the Threat Condition to be assigned. Threat Conditions may be assigned for the entire Nation, or they may be set for a particular geographic area or industrial sector. Assigned Threat Conditions shall be reviewed at regular intervals to determine whether adjustments are warranted. For facilities, personnel, and operations inside the territorial United States, all Federal departments, agencies, and offices other than military facilities shall conform their existing threat advisory systems to this system and henceforth administer their systems consistent with the determination of the Attorney General with regard to the Threat Condition in effect. So it looks like it takes more than a phone call from Judy the Speech Writer, or a “mistake” from some low-level hack to raise the Security Level. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/73 "2009-08-20T22:02:14Z")
Right logic: We have no proof and we should not infer that Bush/Cheney had anything to do with Ashcroft/Rumsfeldt’s orders to Tom Ridge to play fast and loose on behalf of the Bush/Cheney ticket. But we do know without a doubt that Obama wants to kill my grandmother. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/74 "2009-08-20T22:03:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For eight years, I heard how stupid, clueless, and incompetent Bush was. An idiot, a smirking monkey with no real talent and certainly no real intelligence. > > Now he’s so plugged into things, and so aware of every move that it defies credulity he wouldn’t have been on top of every such move? News Flash: the two aren’t mutually exclusive. You can be stupidly shortsighted, incompetent in planning and staffing, and clueless about the repercussions of your actions, and still manage to order people to carry out your ill-conceived and ignorant instructions. Nobody ever denied that Bush wasn’t politically savvy, and given his reputation for holding a grudge and being completely unreceptive to alternative viewpoints, it seems even more unlikely that someone high up in his administration would do something (a) without his approval, or (b) counter to his wishes. So he may not have known (I did say “at least Cheney”), but it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that even if he didn’t, he wouldn’t have minded. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/75 "2009-08-20T22:08:03Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Right logic: We have no proof and we should not infer that Bush/Cheney had anything to do with Ashcroft/Rumsfeldt’s orders to Tom Ridge to play fast and loose on behalf of the Bush/Cheney ticket. But we do know without a doubt that Obama wants to kill my grandmother. How fair is that? I am not saying anything about Obama killing grandmothers. I have repudiated that kind of garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/76 "2009-08-20T22:11:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > @Bricker > > I think you might have a problem with your line of argument. According to the Department of Homeland Security, [Presidential Directive 3](http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/laws/gc_1214508631313.shtm): > > The higher the Threat Condition, the greater the risk of a terrorist attack. Risk includes both the probability of an attack occurring and its potential gravity. Threat Conditions shall be assigned by the Attorney General in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security. Except in exigent circumstances, the Attorney General shall seek the views of the appropriate Homeland Security Principals or their subordinates, and other parties as appropriate, on the Threat Condition to be assigned. Threat Conditions may be assigned for the entire Nation, or they may be set for a particular geographic area or industrial sector. Assigned Threat Conditions shall be reviewed at regular intervals to determine whether adjustments are warranted. > > For facilities, personnel, and operations inside the territorial United States, all Federal departments, agencies, and offices other than military facilities shall conform their existing threat advisory systems to this system and henceforth administer their systems consistent with the determination of the Attorney General with regard to the Threat Condition in effect. > > So it looks like it takes more than a phone call from Judy the Speech Writer, or a “mistake” from some low-level hack to raise the Security Level. In my example, Judy the Speech Writer calls the Secretary to _ask_ him to raise the level for political reasons, and he refuses. Of course she can’t do it. No one said she could. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/77 "2009-08-20T22:12:08Z")
Everyone is studiously ignoring post 67. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/78 "2009-08-20T22:13:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How fair is that? I am not saying anything about Obama killing grandmothers. You haven’t – the Right has. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/79 "2009-08-20T22:16:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d like an answer to this question, please. A more impartial approach would be to assess all available data and draw a conclusion based on everything we know so far, including the provlivities of the president, the structure of command, and the tendency for secretaries to spontaneously ‘push’ head of the “Dept. of Homeland Security” to raise the terror level. Then, after that consideration, we make our assessment. Of course, virtually all of the facts involved are _years_ old, and have already been considered quite a bit. This new fact is not inconsistent with prior facts, and at _best_ confirms prior assumptions to some degree. Given that, it doesn’t take a lot of time to consider the data and draw a (slightly) revised conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/80 "2009-08-20T22:18:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone is studiously ignoring post 67. Okay, I’ll take it. It’s a piece of irrelevant shit. We do not need proof that Bush and Cheney were directly involved to know that they approved it, or did nothing to prevent it, since they were the political beneficiaries of a political (and illegal) act. Now that we’re done with your accusation of being ignored (WAAAAAHHH!!!), let’s move on, shall we? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=5)