# Told You So! (Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104 "2009-08-20T18:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/81 "2009-08-20T22:20:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my example, Judy the Speech Writer calls the Secretary to _ask_ him to raise the level for political reasons, and he refuses. > > Of course she can’t do it. No one said she could. Well, then “pushed” had to be in the strong sense of the term. Judy just asking cannot possibly be considered “pushing”. (And I’m not sure what Secretary she might have called, since the authorized agent is the Attorney General.) > [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone is studiously ignoring post 67. To [someome], a more impartial approach would have been to immediatelty agree that Bush and Cheney were guilty? I think my approach is impartial. I think it is reasonable to assume that if Ashcroft made the decision in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security, who was Ken Wainstein, then someone would have advised the president in a security briefing, if nothing else. And Cheney would likely have been in attendance. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/82 "2009-08-20T22:21:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone is studiously ignoring post 67. This was your very first post in this thread: > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but are you sure it was Bush or Cheney that pushed him? Could it have been someone else? Scooter Libby? Karen Hughes? Jim Nicholson? An impartial approach would not have been to provide a knee-jerk defense of the two people most likely to be culpable in this scenario, while trotting out absurd alternative scapegoats. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/83 "2009-08-20T22:23:46Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > This was your very first post in this thread:An impartial approach would not have been to provide a knee-jerk defense of the two people most likely to be culpable in this scenario, while trotting out absurd alternative scapegoats. He never said _he_ was being impartial. He was just throwing a stone at us to see if our house was glass too. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/84 "2009-08-20T23:01:19Z")
I think that Daniel Ellsberg did the pushing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/85 "2009-08-20T23:06:03Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > [It is.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney) What a picture! He looks so warm, so human! He must have just fed…see, right there, on his lower lip, just the _teensiest_ drop of red… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/86 "2009-08-20T23:07:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone is studiously ignoring post 67. Careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/87 "2009-08-20T23:08:30Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > It will be interesting to see what happens when Cheney’s book comes out. But how will Dick find a way to stretch “Everyone else is a gutless pussy and we’d rule the universe if everyone had listened to me” into 400 pages? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/88 "2009-08-20T23:28:16Z")
Cheney wanted it. I can’t prove it, wouldn’t convict with this evidence in a court. But I feel pretty confident in thinking that Cheney set this up, given Ridge’s revelation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/89 "2009-08-20T23:47:04Z")
Not so sure. In our conversation, we’ve sort of overlooked that the thing was supposed to fit neatly within the time frame of the upcoming election, a nifty little goose to our paranoia gland. And, as everyone knows, the Pubbie strength was national security and patriotism. (Excuse, have to hurl, AFK, BRB…) Now, I don’t perzackly recall, but was there or was there not such a raise in the alert pretty close to the election? Seem to remember there was, along with a number of of equally suspicious chain-yankings over the previous couple years. To me, that’s pretty important. Jacking us around for minor political gains in public stature and so forth, well, that’s one thing. Stinks, but that’s about all. But the election system is holy in democracy, Caesar’s wife can be a Shanghai street slut in comparison, the vote is to be honored and held to be as close to sacred as a secular procedure can be! Doing it just for temporary gains, thats pretty damn bad. Doing it to sway an election, that has me eyeing lampposts. Anyway, all this stinks of domestic political rat-fuck, which ain’t Ashcroft, or Rumsfeld, or even Cheney. That other guy, can’t rremember his name, but it rhymes with painful rectal itch… (Anyway we can check for threads on the subject at the time? Is that kosher? I’d bet my last dollar some loony lefty raised a stink. Be fun to remember who patted them on the head and told them, no, of course not, that’s a disturbin’ legend…) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/90 "2009-08-20T23:51:54Z")
Plus a blown opportunity to show some class. He could have overridden Ashcroft’s decision, and at least would have seemed like a decent person for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/91 "2009-08-21T00:00:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Plus a blown opportunity to show some class. He could have overridden Ashcroft’s decision, and at least would have seemed like a decent person for doing so. Unless he could reasonably suspect that he would be swiftly replaced with someone obedient for showing such impertinence - that is, if the order _did_ come from on high. In that case, the only options worth considering would be obeying or resigning, since disobedience would be equivalent to the latter. Obeying or considering resigning…hmm… Another circumstantial data point… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/92 "2009-08-21T00:04:18Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > This was your very first post in this thread:An impartial approach would not have been to provide a knee-jerk defense of the two people most likely to be culpable in this scenario, while trotting out absurd alternative scapegoats. No, an impartial person doesn’t condemn on near-zero evidence. When the thread started, this is what we had: “…and was pushed to raise the security alert on the eve of President Bush’s re-election, something he saw as politically motivated and worth resigning over.” This was the evidence for “Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney).” Are you seriously going to claim that the impartial reader agrees with that assessment immediately? The case is proven? No defense possible or needed? That, in your view, is honestly what an impartial reader would do? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/93 "2009-08-21T00:05:14Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > But how will Dick find a way to stretch “Everyone else is a gutless pussy and we’d rule the universe if everyone had listened to me” into 400 pages? > > -Joe I see it as a variation on Joyce’s Ulysses - a scatological stream of consciousness chronicling 8 years of degradations and abuse. \*Stately, plump Dick Cheney strode down the steps of his home. A fine suit adorns his vile frame, his hand feverishly clutches the talking points that he will deliver to his toadies at Fox. -Move it driver, before Monkey Boy gets to the Oval office and tries to make a decision! He catches sight of Nancy Pelosi as he pulls up to the White House. -Fuck off, bitch!\* ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/94 "2009-08-21T00:05:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Plus a blown opportunity to show some class. He could have overridden Ashcroft’s decision, and at least would have seemed like a decent person for doing so. Um… Ridge did refuse. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/95 "2009-08-21T00:05:55Z")
If this were provable, would a crime have taken place? Could you call that election tampering? I doubt any Bush-law has language that makes it illegal to misuse. I thought that the second Scott McClellen’s book came out, the investigations and prosecutions would begin instantly. Why are we supposed to be so accepting of the fact that Bush and Cheney have lied to us to push a political agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/96 "2009-08-21T00:08:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think my approach is impartial. I think it is reasonable to assume that if Ashcroft made the decision in consultation with the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security, who was Ken Wainstein, then someone would have advised the president in a security briefing, if nothing else. And Cheney would likely have been in attendance. Do you disagree? The threat level wasn’t raised, though. From **bup** ’s cite: > [@](#): > > Former US homeland security chief Tom Ridge charges in a new book that top aides to then-president George W. Bush pressured him to raise the “terror alert” level to sway the November 2004 US election. > > Then defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld and attorney general John Ashcroft pushed him to elevate the color-coded threat level, **but Ridge refused** , according to a summary from his publisher, Thomas Dunne Books. So, no: if the threat level wasn’t raised, then no one briefed anyone about it being raised. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/97 "2009-08-21T00:09:26Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#): > > If this were provable, would a crime have taken place? Could you call that election tampering? I doubt any Bush-law has language that makes it illegal to misuse. > > I thought that the second Scott McClellen’s book came out, the investigations and prosecutions would begin instantly. > > Why are we supposed to be so accepting of the fact that Bush and Cheney have lied to us to push a political agenda? But is not provable. Every day there are probably dozens of “alerts” that come across the wire. Most are ignored, and who knows what criteria are used to determine if we have moved to Lavender. Ridge may have ASSumed that the change in status was due to politics, but others might argue after swearing on a stack of Bibles and Korans that the change was due to a hint from a field operative in Nigeria that the Bad Guys were planning something. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/98 "2009-08-21T00:11:39Z")
Just as a quick reference, wiki says [John Ashcroft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ashcroft) left office on February 3rd, 2005. [Donald Rumsfeld](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld) left on December 18th, 2006. And we went threat level [Orange](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_Security_Advisory_System#High_.28Orange.29) for select buildings from August 1st through November 10th, 2004, with the election being held on November 2nd. And **Bricker** is being stubborn, but he’s got a point here. Sure, I personally find it unlikely that Tom Ridge would do something as despicable as raise a terror alert level to influence an election on a lesser authority than the President or his Vice President, but does it really matter that much? Can’t we all agree that it reflects really poorly on the administration? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/99 "2009-08-21T00:12:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, an impartial person doesn’t condemn on near-zero evidence. When the thread started, this is what we had: > > “…and was pushed to raise the security alert on the eve of President Bush’s re-election, something he saw as politically motivated and worth resigning over.” > > This was the evidence for “Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney).” > > Are you seriously going to claim that the impartial reader agrees with that assessment immediately? The case is proven? No defense possible or needed? > > That, in your view, is honestly what an impartial reader would do? You forgot the years of other stories detailing how well ‘disloyal’ types fared in the administration. This story does not exist in a vacuum. And we don’t have enough to convict, even now. But educated guesses _are_ possible. And they don’t include “The secretary did it.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/100 "2009-08-21T00:13:20Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > But is not provable. Every day there are probably dozens of “alerts” that come across the wire. Most are ignored, and who knows what criteria are used to determine if we have moved to Lavender. > > Ridge may have ASSumed that the change in status was due to politics, but others might argue after swearing on a stack of Bibles and Korans that the change was due to a hint from a field operative in Nigeria that the Bad Guys were planning something. No, if Ridge writes that Rumsfeld and Ashcroft asked him to raise the alert in response to the election, we can safely assume that was the reason. What possible motive would the AG and SecDef have to lie to the HS Director about the nature of a threat? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=6)