# Told You So! (Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104 "2009-08-20T18:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/121 "2009-08-21T14:18:02Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Shrug. At the time, it did seem strange how “conveniently” the Terra Alerts seemed to coincide with the "spectre of questioning or disagreement"or whatever “stuff” they wanted to “win”… at least it seemed strange to me. My wife and I would always joke when going through airports that if it was orange there must be an election. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/122 "2009-08-21T14:19:29Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I’m a bit skeptical - only because in this account Everything Would Have Been Fine had Ridge’s recommendations been followed. His actual performance in office showed rather mixed results. > > I’m not dismissing it, but I do require corroboration. How is legacy polishing and using orange alerts to win an election mutually exclusive? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/123 "2009-08-21T14:36:24Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Boy, you moonbat liberals certainly do like to get worked up over nothing. From Ridge’s book: > > “.. It also _ **seemed possible** _ to me and to others around the table that something _ **could be** _ afoot other than simple concern about the country’s safety.” (Emphasis added)/url] Well, why even write a sentence like that? I mean, what if I told you, “It’s a POSSIBILITY that some UNKNOWN person MIGHT have THOUGHT ABOUT rigging your car with a bomb.” How fucking useful would that be to you, other than to make you all paranoid and stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/124 "2009-08-21T14:44:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …otherwise, maybe we shouldn’t say, “Really, specifically, demonstrably, infalliably, with certitude and documentation, Bush did it!” That is not the blue eye of a little girl standing on the banks of the Seine on a Sunday afternoon. It’s a dot of blue paint placed proximally to a larger set of dots of peachish-colored paint. Each dot must be considered independently of all others. ---
**Author:** ![palindromemordnilap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@palindromemordnilap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palindromemordnilap)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/125 "2009-08-21T14:44:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s virtually certain that ISN’T the incident, because Ridge clearly says that in the end, the alert level was not raised. Let’s recap: 1. The increase in threat levels frequently coincided with political events. 2. The public was not informed of specific reasons why threat levels were raised, not advised on what to do about higher levels. 3. The above facts led many at the time to speculate that the increases were politically motivated. 4. Ridge now confirms that there was political pressure to raise the threat level, but when faced with pressure, he refused to raise the level, and subsequently resigned over the issue. The conclusion to be drawn from this is that Ridge is inferring that none of the previous increases in threat levels were politically motivated, regardless of how it may have looked to the public. Personally, I continue to believe at least some of the increases WERE poltically motivated. It’s possible that Ridge is just trying to make himself look like the good guy while selling more books. It’s also possible that he was fed information by others to convince him to raise the threat level, and when the evidence that this was happening sunk in, he refused and resigned. Either way, his admission doesn’t really tell me anything I didn’t already know, and is unlikely to sway many people’s opinions on this one way or the other. It will have a lot more impact if Ridge’s book were to say, yeah, I was duped into increasing the threat level after the Democratic Convention and maybe a couple of other times, but when they tried to pull this again, I figured it out and resigned. But even if that is the truth, I wouldn’t hold my breath that Ridge will admit to being a tool. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/126 "2009-08-21T14:47:55Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Again, I’ll wait until the book comes out. My guess is that **elucidator’s** scenario is the most likely narrative. The main takeway for me (so far) is, as you agreed earlier, that Rumsfeld and Ashcroft are scum for pushing Ridge, irresepective of whether the order came from Bush/Cheney or whether Ridge caved. Absolutely. The idea that Rumsfeld and Ashcroft would play with the alert level is contemptible for two reasons: first, of course, the obvious one that it breaches their duty to work on behalf on the country when performing their jobs… and second, that it weakened the power and value of having an alert system, a la the-boy-who-cried-wolf. Scum is probably too kind a word. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/127 "2009-08-21T14:53:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > That is not the blue eye of a little girl standing on the banks of the Seine on a Sunday afternoon. It’s a dot of blue paint placed proximally to a larger set of dots of peachish-colored paint. > > Each dot must be considered independently of all others. Even Georges Seurat would agree that there’s a difference between certainty and conjecture. When a puzzle (or a painting) has a million points, you cna say you’re pretty close to certainty; when it has four, you’re not there yet. Rumsfeld and Ashcroft were motivated actors in their own right. Why do you assume they were mere paens, and that Bush or Cheney was behind it? What evidence, apart from wishful speculation, takes you there? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/128 "2009-08-21T15:01:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even Georges Seurat would agree that there’s a difference between certainty and conjecture. When a puzzle (or a painting) has a million points, you cna say you’re pretty close to certainty; when it has four, you’re not there yet. > > Rumsfeld and Ashcroft were motivated actors in their own right. Why do you assume they were mere paens, and that Bush or Cheney was behind it? What evidence, apart from wishful speculation, takes you there? It would depend on whether or not they had the power to raise the alerts without consulting the President wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/129 "2009-08-21T15:04:27Z")
There is no proof tying Bush and Cheney at this time. It is Cheneyeque though. I suppose as more Bush people write books it will be fleshed out. But Bush was responsible. he was the decider after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/130 "2009-08-21T15:12:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It would depend on whether or not they had the power to raise the alerts without consulting the President wouldn’t it? No. It also depends on what they told the President. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/131 "2009-08-21T15:14:22Z")
Perfectly plausible! How would Bush even find out about the level being raised? After all, the cover of his briefing paper (USA Today) would not reflect any change, seeing as how the level wasn’t _actually_ raised, just sorta kinda raised. (Cheny leans over the President, daubs a bit of oatmeal and milk from young Master Bush’s chin…) “Oh, by the way, Tommy Ridge raised the terror alert level to yellow-and-a-half, but only for financial institutions.” “Golly, Uncle Dick, when was that?” “A few weeks ago.” “Gee whiz, Uncle Dick, was there some scary news?” “Now, George, you know you’re not supposed to ask about the Secret Stuff.” “Oh, right, sorry, I forgot…” “But I’ve got a nice surprise for you!” “Ooooh, goody, goody, I love surprises! Is it a pony?” “Better! Your approval rating has gone up again!” (George claps hands gleefully…) “I’m the bestest President ever, and then some more! That’ll sure show that phony-baloney Kerry, huh? With his fake medals and stuff. You know, Uncle Dick, I wanted to go an shoot down the Viet Cong Air Force, but Pop wouldn’t let me. Said something about why lose the war even faster. Sometimes Pop isn’t very nice, Uncle Dick. Does this mean I’m gonna win the election, Uncle Dick?” “Well, as Joe Stalin said, its not about how people vote, its about who counts the votes” “That’s a pretty good one, Uncle Dick! Who’s Joe Stalin?” “Never mind, its time for your nap.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/132 "2009-08-21T15:19:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …they were mere paens… Nitpick: I think you mean peons. ETA: Or pawns, possibly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/133 "2009-08-21T15:20:51Z")
I thought he was after “pawns”. Nit-pick-pick. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/134 "2009-08-21T15:38:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, why even write a sentence like that? I mean, what if I told you, “It’s a POSSIBILITY that some UNKNOWN person MIGHT have THOUGHT ABOUT rigging your car with a bomb.” How fucking useful would that be to you, other than to make you all paranoid and stuff? Ridge here is talking about the possibility of political pressure, _not_ the actual raising of the threat level itself. Let’s recap: 1. Ridge himself admits he has no proof there was any political pressure to raise the threat level 2. The threat level was not raised during the only incident Ridge thinks there was a possibility that maybe it seemed there was political pressure 3. Others in the room are refuting Ridge’s claim 4. Ridge is trying to sell a book Yeah, that’s quite an allegation you moonbats are making. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/135 "2009-08-21T15:38:57Z")
Pee-ons? As in “Don’t pee on my head and tell me it’s raining, **Bricker**.” ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/136 "2009-08-21T15:39:47Z")
[Frances Townsend](http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/21/frances-townsend-tom-ridge-has-it-wrong/) said she _doesn’t_ believe politics ever played a part in determining the threat level. In meeting _she_ attended, politics never came up. I’m just sharing this in the interest of fairness. I never would have thought Rumsfeld or Ashcroft or Cheney would have been clumsy enough to say in a group meeting, “Hey, you know the terror level is yellow. _For political reasons_, I recommend it go to orange.” So I don’t think her statements are too valuable, although I bet they’re literally true. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/137 "2009-08-21T15:43:17Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Ridge here is talking about the possibility of political pressure, _not_ the actual raising of the threat level itself. > > Let’s recap: > > 1. Ridge himself admits he has no proof there was any political pressure to raise the threat level > 2. The threat level was not raised during the only incident Ridge thinks there was a possibility that maybe it seemed there was political pressure > 3. Others in the room are refuting Ridge’s claim > 4. Ridge is trying to sell a book > > Yeah, that’s quite an allegation you moonbats are making. So just to clarify your point #4, if someone is willing to write down his specific complaint in a book (where you can no longer say he was misquoted or spoke extemporaneously and inaccurately or some such nonsense) then his motives are selfishly ecenomically, so that settles that, BUT If someone is unwilling to make a compaint in book form, then you say you don’t accept the statement as rendered by a mere poster? Have I got that right? As long as I’m asking, is this the same Tom Ridge you’ve known for all these years? Let’s get that one out of the way, too. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/138 "2009-08-21T15:45:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > _For political reasons_ **Bricker** ’s high standard requires that the phrase be specified as “for purely political reasons.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/139 "2009-08-21T15:53:21Z")
Well, still, that’s a point, why would anyone expect us crazy moonbats to have any credibility after all the nutty stuff we been sayin’? Like claiming there weren’t any WMD, when everyone knows they were all trucked into Syria. I mean, who wouldn’t be thrilled to see 100 truckloads of nerve gas trucking over thier border! And calling everybody a liar, when they were just fibbing a little, a white lie here or there, no biggie! And sayin’ ObL wasn’t really Saddam’s bestest friend forever, just because ObL said he hated Saddam. They’re _both_ Muslims, you know! People just don’t believe you when you’re wrong all the time, like we were. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/140 "2009-08-21T16:01:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, still, that’s a point, why would anyone expect us crazy moonbats to have any credibility after all the nutty stuff we been sayin’? Like claiming there weren’t any WMD, when everyone knows they were all trucked into Syria. I mean, who wouldn’t be thrilled to see 100 truckloads of nerve gas trucking over thier border! And calling everybody a liar, when they were just fibbing a little, a white lie here or there, no biggie! > > And sayin’ ObL wasn’t really Saddam’s bestest friend forever, just because ObL said he hated Saddam. They’re _both_ Muslims, you know! > > People just don’t believe you when you’re wrong all the time, like we were. Wow. Summer reruns of the Liberal Greatest Hits! Obama must really be tanking in the polls for you guys to revert to complaints from 2004, huh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=8)