# Told You So! (Tom Ridge Rats Out Bush/Cheney) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104 "2009-08-20T18:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/141 "2009-08-21T16:08:13Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Wow. Summer reruns of the Liberal Greatest Hits! Obama must really be tanking in the polls for you guys to revert to complaints from 2004, huh? IOW, we’ve gone from “We still need more information” directly into “this is old, old boring, tired news” once more, without ever having gone through that embarrassing middle phase again “(Uh, looks like you were right, and I shouldn’t have accused you of making shit up and damaging your credibility forever. My bad. I’ll have to listen to you more carefully in the future and maybe revise my own kneejerk partisan reactions a bit. Kthxbye.”) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/142 "2009-08-21T16:15:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > There is no proof tying Bush and Cheney at this time. It is Cheneyeque though. I suppose as more Bush people write books it will be fleshed out. > But Bush was responsible. he was the decider after all. True. As I mention above, there is a “buck-stops-here” responsibility that is fairly imputed to Bush, no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/143 "2009-08-21T16:18:50Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Wow. Summer reruns of the Liberal Greatest Hits! Obama must really be tanking in the polls for you guys to revert to complaints from 2004, huh? From upthread: > [@](#): > > The Maturation Cycle of Bush Administration Scandals > > 1. Crazy, hysterical, paranoid accusation by wild-eyed, partisan, left-wing loonies. > > 2. Old news > > What’s most amazing is that even when we reach Step 2, Step 1 still applies in full force. QED. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/144 "2009-08-21T16:27:27Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Wow. Summer reruns of the Liberal Greatest Hits! Obama must really be tanking in the polls for you guys to revert to complaints from 2004, huh? See, its stuff like this which is the reason why you guys never win any elections. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/145 "2009-08-21T16:33:47Z")
Hey, remember when Cheney really wanted to go to war with Iraq so he made up a lie about them trying to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger, even though it wasn’t true, but had Bush say so at the State of the Union anyway, and then when the guy whose job it was to find out if Iraq was looking for uranium, Joe Wilson, started telling about how he never found any, despite political pressure to do so, Cheney had Scooter Libbey tell Robert Novak, legendary asshole, that Wilson’s wife was a CIA operative, because somehow having an awesome wife discredits your assertions that the war we’re in is based on a lie, and when that came out Libbey took all the blame for it and never ratted out his ol’ time butt buddy Cheney? I mean, allegedly. Maybe if that weren’t the _only_ accusation of manipulative assholery from the Bush administration, people might have taken it seriously. Otherwise, people might start to believe that Cheney really had no problem lying and breaking the law to further an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/146 "2009-08-21T16:36:00Z")
[http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum) Here is an article showing how badly Bush and Co. politicized the Dept. Of Homeland Security and created terrorist scenarios to scare the voters. They were shameless in using weak or fake terrorism stories to create a "vote for us or get bombed ’ mantra. If Bush and Cheney were completely outside of the loop[ on this, it would be shocking. It would demonstrate a total disconnect to party methodology. I do not find it plausable denial. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/147 "2009-08-21T16:42:34Z")
The bit I don’t understand is what they thought they’d accomplish by spilling the beans on Valerie Plame. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/148 "2009-08-21T16:43:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You forgot the part about there being a hypothetical change in the Presidential Directive. That’s important to the plot. There was a change. [Homeland Security Presidential Directive-3 (HSPD-3)](http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/laws/gc_1214592333605.shtm) switched authority to the Secretary: > [@](#): > > The Homeland Security Act of 2002 assigned the responsibility for administering the Homeland Security Advisory System to the Secretary of Homeland Security. Accordingly, HSPD-3 of March 11, 2002 (“Homeland Security Advisory System”) is amended as follows: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/149 "2009-08-21T16:46:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum) Here is an article showing how badly Bush and Co. politicized the Dept. Of Homeland Security and created terrorist scenarios to scare the voters. They were shameless in using weak or fake terrorism stories to create a "vote for us or get bombed ’ mantra. > If Bush and Cheney were completely outside of the loop[ on this, it would be shocking. It would demonstrate a total disconnect to party methodology. I do not find it plausable denial. You’re mixing several different tactics. There’s no question that the GOP saw their strength vs. the Democrats as being the better party to respond to terrorism threats, and that much of their campaign material was consequently designed to rmeind voters of terror threats and 9/11. Choosing New York as the site of the convention, for example, as your article points out, is a perfect example of that. No one is denying that. And it’s not improper. (You may argue it’s a crappy tactic to use, but it’s certainly not a wrong thing to do.) Undoubtedly Bush and Cheney were well aware of such efforts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/150 "2009-08-21T16:46:12Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The bit I don’t understand is what they thought they’d accomplish by spilling the beans on Valerie Plame. They were aiming to depict Joe Wilson as a light-weight who only got the job because of his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/151 "2009-08-21T16:46:14Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > The bit I don’t understand is what they thought they’d accomplish by spilling the beans on Valerie Plame. Fucking over her husband. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/152 "2009-08-21T16:48:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > ..(You may argue it’s a crappy tactic to use, but it’s certainly not a wrong thing to do.)… A fine distinction, to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/153 "2009-08-21T16:53:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even the cite offered to start this thread doesn’t say anyone was ordered. He says he was “pushed to.” He didn’t but he was encouraged to. He doesn’t say it was someone “above him.” > > So how I feel about that depends entirely on who did it, and how strong a “push” it was. > > EXAMPLE A: > > “Mr. Secretary, I’m calling on behalf of the White House communications group, and we wanted to get a heads-up on the threat level for next week.” > > “It’s Yellow, and I don’t see anything on the horizon to change it.” > > “Are you sure?” > > “Yes, why?” > > “You sure it isn’t going to be Orange?” > > “Yes.” > > “Completely sure? Since there’s an election, and all…” > > “No. I’m completely sure.” > > “Ok.” (pause) “How sure, again? Because Orange might help us…” > > -click- > > “Mr. Secretary? Hello?” > > EXAMPLE B: > > “Tom, Dick Cheney here. We’re going to need the threat level elevated to Orange on November 1st. Say it’s Al-Queda, or some shit like that. Frankly I don’t care. I just want Orange on headlines, got it?” > > “Mr. Vice-President, I don’t change the threat level based on–” > > “Don’t give me any shit, Tom. If you don’t want to be back in Pennsylvania writing a book about the shortest term of any cabinet secretary this century, I better damn well see ‘Orange’ while I’m sipping my coffee Monday morning.” -click- > > Example B is despicable. Example A is nothing. Or maybe the push came from David Addington, a.k.a. “Cheney’s Cheney,” or Scooter Libby, who was “Cheney’s Cheney” before Scooter got caught up in the Plame affair, and the title passed on to Addington. People in an organization like that have a pretty good idea of who’s acting with the boss’ authority, and who isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/154 "2009-08-21T16:54:54Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Fucking over her husband. This is my read on it too. I never really got the “discredit” angle. I always thought it was retaliation. “Tell on us, will ya? Well, let’s see how you like it when we ruin your wife’s career and undermine her safety!” I know if I was the next guy thinking of opposing the administration, I’d certainly think twice after that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/155 "2009-08-21T17:06:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They were aiming to depict Joe Wilson as a light-weight who only got the job because of his wife. Do you think it worked? > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Fucking over her husband. Do you think it worked? ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/156 "2009-08-21T17:08:45Z")
It strikes me as very, “Oh yeah?! Well…” and not thought-through at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/157 "2009-08-21T17:10:53Z")
Typically - when bad actors or actions are tied to the upper tiers of an organization, the head of said organization is often considered responsible, no? I’m thinking Ken Lay, Andrew Fastow, Jeff Skilling, Berny Ebbers, Tom Rubin, Dennis Kozlowski, John Rigas, etc. So - does anyone know who people like Ridge, Rummy and Ashcroft worked for? Might they be in any teeny way responsible for the actions of their underlings? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/158 "2009-08-21T17:10:56Z")
It kinda worked, there were some punditti who picked up the “light weight sent on a junket by his wife” theme. Niger was a very hot vacation spot. Literally. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/159 "2009-08-21T17:12:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A fine distinction, to be sure. Sure. And Goldwater was going to blow us all up, starting with a poor little girl picking flower petals in a field. It’s not the most honorable tactic, scaring voters into fearing your opponent, but neither party is above it. It’s certainly not a reason to criticize on party over the other. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104/160 "2009-08-21T17:20:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. And Goldwater was going to blow us all up, starting with a poor little girl picking flower petals in a field. > > It’s not the most honorable tactic, scaring voters into fearing your opponent, but neither party is above it. It’s certainly not a reason to criticize on party over the other. Yes. A one-time-aired political ad is to an official federal governmental terrorism advisory system just as Robert Novak is to Daniel Ellsberg. I never took the Bricker Analogies Test (BAT). I don’t think I’d perform very well on it. Again, it’s a real head-scratcher why you might have a reputation as a right-winged toadie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/told-you-so-tom-ridge-rats-out-bush-cheney/507104.md?page=9)