Tolkien and women

There are lots of novels that have a dearth of female characters—for example, classic sea stories like Moby Dick. Would you say that the dearth of female characters is a significant criticism of Moby Dick or one of the “issues” with Melville, or would you say that it was a necessary and appropriate consequence of the setting and the kind of story Melville chose to tell?

And yes, obviously LOTR isn’t quite the same kind of situation as Moby Dick—Tolkien was making up his own setting. But maybe that example shows why it’s necessary to know something about the historical/social context that explains why a work has a certain characteristic if you’re going to criticize it for having that characteristic.

I’m actually not interested in a back-and-forth on Moby Dick. Tolkien was writing in an invented universe with giant sentient spiders and cursed rings that turned the wearer invisible. His imagination was astonishingly powerful. But he could not, or did not, conceive of a world where women went on adventures. That’s a weakness.

Exactly. As I said in the other thread Galadriel could have been the most powerful being in the history of the universe. She has a token appearance. Like, you can write a book with a cameo by Queen Elizabeth I who does nothing but appear in one chapter -she’s then never mentioned again - and have tea with the main character and admit she loves scones more than treacle tart and that’s it for females in the Elizabethan era. Cool. But you can’t argue about all of the stuff she actually did in real life and say “well, she was a strong queen so the author writes strong women!”

Also, my point was not “was Tolkien aware of Jirel, etc.” but “are readers aware?” And I have to think no. No they are not. Now, I am willing to believe that part of the reason for male- heavy fantasy early on (there’s no excuse today) is that publishers may not have been willing. That’s fair.

You might also consider how many books, fantasy and other, have been mentioned on here with zero females or only token females. You don’t even have to think about it. And when it’s omnipresent, that’s a problem.

Tolkein gives Eowyn an absolutely beautiful feminist speech when she’s told only men can go with Aragorn to the war, including the often-quoted line “All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.”

And then he ruins the whole damn thing by having her follow that by saying that she wants to join the troops because she’s in love with Aragorn.

He did better with women than a lot of others writing at the time, and should get credit for it. But he had some of the walls in his head of the time, and it shows.

You can do both. You can acknowledge that a work is a product of its time and you can still read it through the lens of your own. Great literary works can stand up just fine to the critical eyes of future generations.

I don’t know if there are many works of fiction produced in previous decades that won’t rankle a modern audience in one way or the other. When someone points out that Tolkien’s work lacks women characters I can’t help but agree. But so what? As criticisms go it seems rather weak.

Here’s a place to start in analyzing what books might have influenced Tolkien:

It’s unlikely that he ever read Jirel of Joiry and the Oz books. I doubt if he read any works of fantasy written after 1930. He didn’t read American pulp magazines. His tastes were pretty much set well before The Hobbit was published in 1937.

Again, I never implied Tolkien did.

Which would be a valid criticism…if Tolkien had written for 10 year-olds. But he wasn’t writing a children’s book - he was crafting a saga, molded both by his interest in early medieval Germanic literature, and his Catholic faith. Judging by the text, he thought that his characters’ decisions - “I will take the Ring, though I do not know the way”; “I have passed the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel” - were as central to the conflict as any battle.

I don’t disagree that LOTR has a dearth of female characters, or that aside from Éowyn the ones that do appear only serve to support or react to the male protagonists, or that it’s problematic that after her flash of agency and heroism, Tolkien quickly made Éowyn revert to a traditional gender stereotype - " I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.” I only point out that by Tolkien’s standards, Galadriel did have one act of struggle and heroic victory.

Nobody commented on my mention of courtly love, but I think people are seriously underestimating the influence of medieval literature on Tolkien.

Probably the reason is that not many many people have actually read any medieval heroic literature.

Tolkien published acclaimed translations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo, as well as A Middle English Vocabulary that became a standard work.

He was deeply familiar with medieval epics like The Song of Roland and the Arthurian romances of Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory.

His close friend and associate C.S. Lewis published an influential work on courtly love, Allegory of Love.

Tolkien’s whole language and style in the ‘heroic’ parts of LOTR is drawn directly and consciously from this medieval of literature of knightly deeds.

So are many of the relationships of his main characters with women.

Can anyone seriously read passages like these and think that Tolkien was NOT influenced by medieval literature?

With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.

Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken.

Then the prince seeing her beauty, though her face was pale and cold, touched her hand as he bent to look more closely on her. ‘Men of Rohan!’ he cried. ‘Are there no leeches among you? She is hurt, to the death maybe, but I deem that she yet lives.’ And he held the bright-burnished vambrace that was upon his arm before her cold lips, and behold! a little mist was laid on it hardly to be seen.

Tolkien was not influenced by actual medieval history, but by medieval literature.

Modern illustrations of Roland blowing his horn ‘Oliphant’ at his desperate last stand at Roncevaux, from The Song of Roland.

Remind you of Boromir?

Except for all those fireworks…

That’s not accurate, whether you’re talking Germanic or Medieval times.

I guess, so what? He could add a giant spider, Gollum, giant war eagles, ents and who knows what else but god forbid he add a woman as a main character.

Medieval literature (and pre-Medieval, which was an even bigger influence) had plenty of ruling queens and warrior women. Not women dressed as men, mind you, but actual warrior women.

What it boils down to is: Tolkien was writing about males for males. That’s not me.

And - though he couldn’t have known nor anticipated so I can’t blame him - it is still true in a lot of fantasy because he gets slavishly copied and imitated and is used as inspiration. Surely fantasy of all genres should be inclusive.

Can you give some examples?

Sure.

No, I’m not talking about Celtic mythology or folklore or historical people, but medieval literature specifically.

What bounds are you drawing around “medieval literature”, there? Most of the Irish stuff is medieval literature, as are the quasi-historical Viking stuff Saxo Grammaticus recorded and the Eddas. That it’s about pre-medieval characters is irrelevant (since you’re putting Matter-of-Britain stuff forward)

I mean the kind of thing Tolkien would have considered medieval literature. Works in Old or Middle English, and French, Italian, and perhaps even Spanish from the same period.

Perhaps I should have called it ‘Medieval Romance literature’.

Tolkien was certainly very much into Norse, Finnish, and Celtic epics and mythology, and drew on them extensively, but this aspect of his works (attitude to women) comes distinctly from those Romance language epics and stories about knightly deeds, refined and/or magical ladies, and courtly love.

Tolkien Letters - letter to Michael Tolkien 6-8 March 1941:

There is in our Western culture the romantic chivalric tradition still strong, though as a product of Christendom (yet by no means the same as Christian ethics) the times are inimical to it. It idealizes ‘love’ — and as far as it goes can be very good, since it takes in far more than physical pleasure, and enjoins if not purity, at least fidelity, and so self-denial, ‘service’, courtesy, honour, and courage.

Its weakness is, of course, that it began as an artificial courtly game, a way of enjoying love for its own sake without reference to (and indeed contrary to) matrimony. Its centre was not God, but imaginary Deities, Love and the Lady. It still tends to make the Lady a kind of guiding star or divinity – of the old-fashioned ‘his divinity’ = the woman he loves – the object or reason of noble conduct.

This is, of course, false and at best make-believe. The woman is another fallen human-being with a soul in peril. But combined and harmonized with religion (as long ago it was, producing much of that beautiful devotion to Our Lady that has been God’s way of refining so much our gross manly natures and emotions, and also of warming and colouring our hard, bitter, religion) it can be very noble.

Then it produces what I suppose is still felt, among those who retain even vestigiary Christianity, to be the highest ideal of love between man and woman.

 
And then, of course, there is Tolkien’s own relationship with his wife, reminiscent not only of Beren and Luthien, but also of Aragorn and Arwen:

Having the romantic upbringing*, I made a boy-and-girl affair serious, and made it the source of effort. Naturally rather a physical coward, I passed from a despised rabbit on a house second-team to school colours in two seasons. All that sort of thing.

However, trouble arose: and I had to choose between disobeying and grieving (or deceiving) a guardian who had been a father to me, more than most real fathers, but without any obligation, and ‘dropping’ the love- affair until I was 21. I don’t regret my decision, though it was very hard on my lover. But that was not my fault. She was perfectly free and under no vow to me, and I should have had no just complaint (except according to the unreal romantic code) if she had got married to someone else.

For very nearly three years I did not see or write to my lover. It was extremely hard, painful and bitter, especially at first. The effects were not wholly good: I fell back into folly and slackness and misspent a good deal of my first year at College. But I don’t think anything else would have justified marriage on the basis of a boy’s affair; and probably nothing else would have hardened the will enough to give such an affair (however genuine a case of true love) permanence.

On the night of my 21st birthday I wrote again to your mother – Jan. 3, 1913. On Jan. 8th I went back to her, and became engaged, and informed an astonished family.

*I think that by “Having the romantic upbringing” he means being brought up on literature idealizing women and noble love, as in Romance literature.