# Tolkien claimed LOTR was "a fundamentally religious & Catholic work" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640 "2006-09-06T15:06:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/1 "2006-09-06T15:06:28Z")
Interesting. I never realized Tolkien made a specific point of this. [The Truth Beyond Memory - J.R.R. Tolkien’s “The Lord of the Rings”](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_25_53/ai_80932695) > [@](#): > > Tolkien does more than strive to avoid contradiction, however; he filled The Lord of the Rings with patchy foreshadowings of a Christian truth that had not yet revealed itself in fullness. Early on, when Frodo says he wishes someone would kill Gollum, a pitiful beast who haunts Tolkien’s heroes, Gandalf objects. “Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it,” he says. “My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end.” Indeed Gollum does, and he contributes to a medley of themes about knowledge, salvation, and eternity. > [@](#): > > One of the most famous questions scholars have asked about Beowulf is whether it’s a Christian poem; it seems to have been written by a Christian, but it deals with a pagan society. Likewise, there is no mention of God or even religion in Middle Earth. Yet Tolkien considered the book a reflection of his own faith. “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision,” wrote Tolkien in 1953. “The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” There are many examples of this, though readers frequently overlook them. A close examination of the appendices (there are six, plus indexes and maps) reveals a detail that goes unmentioned in the main narrative: The nine companions who comprise “the fellowship of the ring” begin their fateful mission on December 25 (Christmas), and their story climaxes exactly three months later, on March 25 (in the traditional English calendar, the date of the Fall of Man, the Annunciation, and the Crucifixion). Too much can be read into all this-Tolkien insisted that his book was not an allegory-but it does carry at least a limited meaning. Tom Shippey, Tolkien’s finest interpreter, calls it “a kind of signature, a personal mark of piety.” ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/2 "2006-09-06T18:33:32Z")
Tolkien said many things about LOTR–but he was not exactly consistent. I’d suggest reading his “Letters” to see how his ideas evolved. The National Review essayist was also expressing his own viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that, but please realize that other interpretations are possible. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/3 "2006-09-06T19:26:53Z")
FYI, the second quote is from letter 142, Dec. 12, 1953. Letter 246 also has some relevant material. [Center for the American Idea](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/4 "2006-09-06T21:10:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Likewise, there is no mention of God or even religion in Middle Earth. No direct, unambiguous mention in the main body of the work, at least. There are at least two indirect references to God (Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and Gandalf was sent back into the World as the White), one direct reference which would be enigmatic to anyone who hadn’t read the Silmarillion (I am the servant of the Secret Fire, and you shall not pass), and one clear direct reference in the Appendix on Aragorn and Arwen (So this is The One’s gift to Man?). The Standing Silence, where the Gondorians in Ithilien look to the West before eating, can probably be regarded as a religious practice, and all the Elves’ songs about Elbereth and the other Valar could also be argued as religious (though of a fundamentally different sort than any human religion). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/5 "2006-09-06T21:24:56Z")
> [@](#): > > “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision,” wrote Tolkien in 1953. “The religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” Some of us figured this out just by reading the book. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/6 "2006-09-06T23:03:10Z")
Tolkien was a friend of C. S. Lewis. Lewis’ work was definitely Catholic in inspiration; it’d be surprising if some of that didn’t rub off on Tolkien, even though he was less blatant about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/7 "2006-09-06T23:11:00Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] Tolkien was a friend of C. S. Lewis. Lewis’ work was definitely Catholic in inspiration; it’d be surprising if some of that didn’t rub off on Tolkien, even though he was less blatant about it. [/QUOTE] Lewis was Anglican. At times, his anti-catholicism was a cause of friction between the two men. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/8 "2006-09-06T23:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=Alive At Both Ends] Tolkien was a friend of C. S. Lewis. Lewis’ work was definitely Catholic in inspiration; it’d be surprising if some of that didn’t rub off on Tolkien, even though he was less blatant about it. [/QUOTE] Lewis’ work seems definately Christian in inspiration, not specifiacly Catholic. What “Catholic” influence did you see? I know Lewis was not Catholic and was an Atheist for some time, so I’m surprised to hear of any Catholic influence. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/9 "2006-09-06T23:52:06Z")
In his later years, JRRT wrote a number of works to fit into the Silmarillion, only to discard them later as he felt they were “too close to being a parody of catholocism” (or words to that effect) and hence diminished his writings. These comments he attributed particularly to manuscripts where his characters discuss the subornation of Men by Melkor. (I believe this was in “Morgoth’s Ring” from HOMES, but I’m not absolutely sure. Andreth was the woman who was explaining the Fall of Man to Finrod, IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/10 "2006-09-06T23:54:17Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] Lewis was Anglican. At times, his anti-catholicism was a cause of friction between the two men. [/QUOTE] Furthermore, my impression was that Tolkien influenced Lewis more than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/11 "2006-09-07T00:18:10Z")
Reading the Silmarillion, it is hard not to see some Christian and Catholic influence. Tolkien was a Catholic and it appears that this influenced him. It is also apparent he was influenced by Finnish sources he had read along with Celtic and Germanic myths. He even snuck the legend of Atlantic in as Numenor. In one of the books the Valar are mentioned as an Angelic order, yet reading the Silmarillion they are established and interact with the world more like the Gods of various northern European legends. [QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Furthermore, my impression was that Tolkien influenced Lewis more than the other way around. [/QUOTE] Somewhere I saw Lewis himself write about that. He did say Tolkien had a influence on him. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/12 "2006-09-07T00:32:01Z")
Tolkein was religious, and I don’t doubt that his religion influenced his writing. He would never have put anything in that directly contradicted his beliefs. (“Hooray for evil!” for instance.) But he also put a pretty strong warning in the preface to the American edition against finding allegorical meaning in LOtR. He was trying to write an entertaining fantasy and to play around with language, that’s it. Note: I’m not a Tolkein scholar by any means. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/13 "2006-09-07T00:40:35Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Tolkein was religious, and I don’t doubt that his religion influenced his writing. He would never have put anything in that directly contradicted his beliefs. (“Hooray for evil!” for instance.) But he also put a pretty strong warning in the preface to the American edition against finding allegorical meaning in LOtR. He was trying to write an entertaining fantasy and to play around with language, that’s it. Note: I’m not a Tolkein scholar by any means. [/QUOTE] Actually he did write and discuss that he wanted to create a great legend for the English People to rival Beowulf, the Iliad and others. The Language was a strong foundation for the realistic feel of his fantasy creation, but was not the reason for the creation. He wrote the Hobbit from stories begun for his own kids. He wrote the Lord of the Rings at the request of Unwin his publisher. It was a sequel to the Hobbit and yet incorporates some of the much older legends he had created for fun and to share with the Inklings. These stories went on to be the Silmarillion and all the other Tomes edited by Christopher Tolkien. The early stories of the Elves were indeed written to some degree to frame his love of languages. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/14 "2006-09-07T00:58:57Z")
One of my Mormon friends–and a fellow Tolkien addict–claimed he saw a lot of Mormon influence in the Silmarillion :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/15 "2006-09-07T01:06:19Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] One of my Mormon friends–and a fellow Tolkien addict–claimed he saw a lot of Mormon influence in the Silmarillion :dubious: [/QUOTE] You should tell your friend there’s even odds, at best, that TOlkein ever even heard of Mormanism. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/16 "2006-09-07T01:07:30Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] One of my Mormon friends–and a fellow Tolkien addict–claimed he saw a lot of Mormon influence in the Silmarillion :dubious: [/QUOTE] Aren’t Mormons Christian based or at least influenced? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/17 "2006-09-07T02:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux] One of my Mormon friends–and a fellow Tolkien addict–claimed he saw a lot of Mormon influence in the Silmarillion :dubious: [/QUOTE] [Mormon Temple](http://www-mtl.mit.edu/~fana/ski_utah_jan04/saltlake_pics/mormon_temple.jpg) [Minas Tirith](http://lani.joueb.com/images/Minas_Tirith_2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/18 "2006-09-07T02:54:32Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Tolkein was religious, and I don’t doubt that his religion influenced his writing. He would never have put anything in that directly contradicted his beliefs. (“Hooray for evil!” for instance.) But he also put a pretty strong warning in the preface to the American edition against finding allegorical meaning in LOtR. He was trying to write an entertaining fantasy and to play around with language, that’s it. Note: I’m not a Tolkein scholar by any means. [/QUOTE] IIRC, didn’t Tolkien say that he specifically disliked deliberate allegory? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/19 "2006-09-07T03:00:02Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] IIRC, didn’t Tolkien say that he specifically disliked deliberate allegory? [/QUOTE] He did mention it in one of his essays, I think it was “On Fairy Stories” but then “Leaf by Niggle” was pure allgory and he never clained otherwise. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640/20 "2006-09-07T03:30:39Z")
You do know that the picture of the Minas Tirith was from the movie right? So that it’s Jackson’s interpretation of the book rather than Tolkien’s drawings. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claimed-lotr-was-a-fundamentally-religious-catholic-work/371640.md?page=2)