# Tolkien claims LOTR was not influenced by Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen". Plausible or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 5, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018 "2015-01-05T08:04:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/1 "2015-01-05T08:04:50Z")
I was surprised to see this in the [wiki of the Ring Cycle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen). From the number of correspondences between the two in how they handle the mythic material it seems pretty obvious he’s taking some influences from the Ring cycle but he claims absolutely not. is Tolkien’s claim plausible? > [@](#): > > Wagner’s Ring and Tolkien’s Ring[edit] > > J. R. R. Tolkien’s fantasy novels The Hobbit (1937) and The Lord of the Rings (1954) share elements with Der Ring des Nibelungen, but Tolkien himself denied that he had been inspired by Wagner’s work, saying that “Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases.”[23] In spite of Tolkien’s protestation, there are various similarities in addition to annularity: a ring of power which curses its bearer; a powerful wanderer in a large hat carrying a spear (Wotan) or staff (Gandalf the Grey); magical invisibility; the reforging of a powerful sword; a riddle contest; Sméagol’s murder of his cousin Deagol for possession of the ring and Fafner’s murder of his brother Fasolt for the same reason; the slaying of a powerful gold-hoarding dragon; to name but a few.[24][25] Tolkien may have drawn, albeit partially, upon common source material, including the Völsunga saga and the Poetic Edda. The crucial element of the storyline, that the ring is evil, and will work of itself to the undoing of its possessor, is common to both, as is the lust for world domination connected with its power, and that the ring has been stolen (Wagner) or captured (Tolkien) from its rightful owner(s). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/2 "2015-01-05T08:16:01Z")
Plausible? Sure - Tolkien almost certainly new far, far more about Old German/Norse mythology in general than Wagner ever did. Barring evidence to the contrary I’d be inclined to accept the general claim of common source material. Not to say Tolkien may have been prevaricating a bit, though. Or at least I wouldn’t be all that shocked if evidence linking Tolkien in some way to Wagner were to turn up. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/3 "2015-01-05T08:32:59Z")
Yeah…common source material is most likely. Tolkien almost certainly knew about Disney’s Snow White, too… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/4 "2015-01-05T08:34:31Z")
Nah, I’m with Tolkien here. Coincidences all. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/5 "2015-01-05T10:52:38Z")
Deliberate borrowing- I doubt it. Subconscious influence- sure. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/6 "2015-01-05T11:30:15Z")
Wagner didn’t create the elements of the Ring Cycle himself - is Tolkien just not denying an influence by _specifically_ Wagner’s version (the way someone might be influenced by fairy stories but disavow any influence by Disney versions)? ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/7 "2015-01-05T13:49:59Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Deliberate borrowing- I doubt it. Subconscious influence- sure. Nonsense. If I write a book that’s based on Germanic myth and YOU write a book thirty years later that is based on Germanic myth, they’re going to have some meaningful similarities even if you never read my book. Common source material is a far more plausible explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/8 "2015-01-05T13:52:29Z")
My sweet lord, just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/9 "2015-01-05T14:12:28Z")
The idea of a ring that makes you invisible but at the cost of changing your morality goes back at least as far as Plato. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/10 "2015-01-05T14:40:31Z")
Tolkien also claimed that he didn’t take what he wanted from _Beowulf_. Sure – a Dragon’s ire is roused because a Thief comes in and steals a two-handled cup from his hoard. When the dragon wakes, he knows exactly what has been taken and comes out to vent his wrath on the nearest village. And Tolkien took NONE of this for _The Hobbit_? Sure. Tolkien might not have borrowed from Wagner’s Ring Cycle directly, but there’s no doubt that he cribbed the features he wanted from the Germanic legends that lie at the heart of Wagner. Lots of analyses point out the similarities. (Have a look – if you can find a copy – at Lin Carter’s _Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings_, which came out circa 1970. But you can find more scholarly books and articles about it, too). I could see Tolkien saying that he didn’t take from Wagner, because Wagner’s interpretation itself is shaped by Wagner’s goals, and differs from the version of the story I know from Bulfinch and elsewhere. If you want an interesting take on Wagner, read George Bernard Shaw’s _The Perfect Wagnerite_ ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/11 "2015-01-05T14:56:59Z")
It is not the ring that make’s folks invisible in Wagner’s ring, it is the tarnhelm. The Perfect Wagnerite denies _Gotterdammerung_ as the climax of the Ring cycle, and declares it merely high opera. Shaw is pushing is own philosophical ideas, and uses Wagner’s work to do so. Wagner and Tolkien had the same or similar source material. I don’t believe that Tolkien cribbed Wagner. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/12 "2015-01-05T15:24:47Z")
n.m. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/13 "2015-01-05T15:34:43Z")
[This discussion](http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=archive&TID=116744) looks at Lin Carter’s assertion that LoTR cribbed off of Wagner’s Ring, and picks it apart. Verdict: Not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/14 "2015-01-05T15:41:58Z")
You’ll have to be more specific – that’s a long discussion, and most of it has nothing to do with Carter. In fact, some cites have Tolkien admitting to using material from the legends for some of his other works. In any event, you’ll have to do better than that to show that Carter is wrong about Tolkien’s influences. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/15 "2015-01-05T16:08:04Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > My sweet lord, just a coincidence. I got that, you know. Tolkien is so fine, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/16 "2015-01-05T16:37:31Z")
I’ve read Christopher Tolkien’s “History of Middle Earth” books which goes through JRR’s edits of LOTR in great detail (sometimes too much detail). The changes to the story are IMO too organic to have been purposefully cribbed from another source. I think the worst charge that can be thrown at JRR is that he (like most authors) write about things that they know and he certainly knew German and Norse myth. Some of the other points seem weak. For example, how many stories have magic invisibility? Does that mean they all ripped off Wagner? It’s just really hard to write a story that is wholly new that doesn’t borrow elements from some previous tale. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/17 "2015-01-05T22:20:25Z")
Did Tolkien “crib from” Germanic myth, or Beowulf, or was Lord of the Rings “based on” them? Absolutely not. Tolkien wrote his own stories, with his own elements and themes. But was he inspired by them? It’s hard to see how he wouldn’t be: An artist draws at least some inspiration from everything he sees or reads. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-claims-lotr-was-not-influenced-by-wagners-der-ring-des-nibelungen-plausible-or-not/709018/18 "2015-01-05T22:57:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > An artist draws at least some inspiration from everything he sees or reads. We need a “like” button. 🙂