# Tolkien considered LOTR "a Christian work"... How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668 "2003-12-03T05:56:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/1 "2003-12-03T05:56:59Z")
In reading [this interesting article](http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2003/12/03/tolkien_lewis/index2.html) in Salon re the long term relationship between Tolkein and C.S. Lewis and how it affected their work, I was kind of surprised by this statement. How precisely, did Tolkien see the LOTR “as a Christian work”? > [@](#): > > Tolkien’s chief objections, however, were those of a craftsman. He considered “The Lord of the Rings” a Christian work, but its religious themes were carefully buried in the story. ---
**Author:** ![BrandyFine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrandyFine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandyFine)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/2 "2003-12-03T06:01:53Z")
From what I’ve read it had to do with the themes of redemption and good/evil. Hm, it was quite a while ago I read about it so I’m forgetting a lot. You seem almost not to believe it, and I’m curious why the author’s word on his motivations and intents wouldn’t carry just a bit more weight than that? He would know a lot more than we would what he meant, right? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/3 "2003-12-03T06:19:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > \*\*In reading [this interesting article](http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2003/12/03/tolkien_lewis/index2.html) in Salon re the long term relationship between Tolkein and C.S. Lewis and how it affected their work, I was kind of surprised by this statement. How precisely, did Tolkien see the LOTR “as a Christian work”? \*\* Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and it’s certainly easy to see hints of his theology in LOTR. It’s also easy (perhaps TOO easy) to see parallels between Jesus and various LOTR characters. Tolkien disliked obvious analogies, and sometimes criticized C.S. Lewis’ fiction for being TOO blatantly allegorical. Tolkien believed that a story must have a certain integrity, that it must stand on its own. If a story has such integrity, he believed, readers could and would find interesting parallels to all kinds of things (from ancient history to current events, from Scripture to Arthurian legend). So, Tolkien would have been disappointed if readers of LOTR came away saying, “Aha! I get it- the Shire is England and Sauron is Hitler!” And he’d have been equally disappointed if prople concluded, simplistically, that “Frodo is Jesus and Sauron is Satan,” even though there are valid reasons to make such comparisons. But if you want a few simple parallels between Frodo and Jesus… Well, think of the Ring as the Cross. Frodo is carrying the ring up Mount Doom, bearing the weight of a great evil, to give hope to man. Jesus carried his Cross and the weight of all human sin/evil on his shoulders, up Mount Calvary. One could even draw some comparisons between Sam Gamgee and Simon of Cyrene, or between Gollum and Judas (both Judas and Gollum were, in spite of themselves, instrumental in helping their respective masters carry out their missions). ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/4 "2003-12-03T07:38:00Z")
Thanks for starting this thread, **Astro**. I’d been meaning to start a thread on this exact topic because I’m constantly surprised by how unaware people are about the Christian themes in LOTR and find it ironic that a great many self described pagans absolutely love Tolkien’s work and what its surface themes seem to present while not knowing what Tolkien was truly driving at. **Astorian** has already done a fine job of giving you an idea about the Christian themes in LOTR, but let me add a few more examples to what’s already been said. Tolkien seemed to enjoy spreading the allegories around, with characters having multiple relations to biblical figures, and items and events having multiple connections as well. For example, Gandalf, like Frodo, is a Christ-like figure, and for him this is evident in his death and resurrection. The One Ring, while representing the cross, is also analogous to the apple in the Garden of Eden, tempting the innocent. There is also a strong theme of redemption, one of the key components of Catholicism, in the books as with Boromir who betrays the fellowship, but in the end sacrifices himself in the hopes that they may complete their mission. Then there are the elves and the wizards and their use of magic. I unfortunately can’t remember where I heard this, and it is therefore very IIRC, but they were supposed to angels of sorts and that was the source of their power. Makes Saruman’s betrayal much more interesting, IMO, and more analogous to Lucifer’s fall. Here are a couple of interesting links on the subject I found with some quick googling. [http://www.stuffucanuse.com/Lotr/Christianity\_and\_lotr.htm](http://www.stuffucanuse.com/Lotr/Christianity_and_lotr.htm) [http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0160.html](http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0160.html) [http://www.angelsandelves.com/main.htm](http://www.angelsandelves.com/main.htm) One of the more interesting tidbits in the links is the mention that The Return of the King is in fact a reference to the second coming of Christ. I should mention that I am in no way an expert on LOTR, or its Christian themes, I simply found the connection interesting, did a little research on it and had a conversation with a friend who knows a lot more about LOTR and Catholicism than I do (he’s a priest). My knowledge on the topic, while not exhausted, doesn’t get too much more deep than what’s in this post. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/5 "2003-12-03T14:28:32Z")
And, according to a lecture on Tolkien I just attended, the Ring was destroyed on the Anglo-Saxon date for Good Friday. March 25th? I’ll have to check. In Anglo-Saxon England, the dates for Easter were constant, and Good Friday was always on March 25 (or whatever. I think it’s March 25th). Tolkien was a specialist in Anglo-Saxon literature. So evil is destroyed through self-sacrifice on Good Friday. Pretty obvious Christian symbolism. The Fall of Morgoth is another pretty biblical thing- the most powerful angel turns away from the Illuvatar’s design to try and create on his own, and thus corrupts himself, and is eventually tossed out beyond the Gate of (Somethingness). It also just struck me that Tolkien thought of mythmaking as a holy activity- he called it subcreation, and believed that humans were glorifying God the creator by their own creating. He wrote a poem called “Mythopoeia”, and I’ll quote a bit: _Yes! “wish-fufilment” dreams we spin to cheat Our timid hearts and ugly Fact defeat! Whence came the wish, and whence the power to dream, Or some things fair, and others ugly deem?_ More later, when I have time, but it just occurred to me that that’s probably why his characters spend so much time singing and reciting poetry and tales. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/6 "2003-12-03T15:15:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissla Lissar \* > **In Anglo-Saxon England, the dates for Easter were constant, and Good Friday was always on March 25 (or whatever. I think it’s March 25th).** O.K., so you _really_ don’t see any possible problem with this? This would mean that the 25th would always have to be a Friday. Setting constants for religious observance is one thing but manipulating the calendar so that a particular date always falls on the same day of the week is an entirely different thing. The most “constant” that they could get would be to set that Easter would be always on the 4th Sunday of March (or last Sunday of March or whatever). . ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/7 "2003-12-03T15:22:53Z")
There’s a really detailed article in this month’s _St. Anthony Messenger_ (Catholic magazine) that talks about the Catholicism of the LOTR. You can read it [here](http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Dec2003/Feature2.asp). Here’s a pertinent excerpt: > [@](#): > > Seven Social-justice Principles Onscreen > > The principles of Catholic social justice have been articulated since the time of Pope Leo XIII. In 1999 Pope John Paul II explored these principles in detail for the Synod of the Americas (Apostolic Letter, Ecclesia in America). I would like to examine them here, in light of The Lord of the Rings. Indeed, the characters, cultures and the very Fellowship of the Ring witness to how these principles can work for the betterment of individuals and society. > > 1. **The inherent dignity of the human person.** The hobbits in particular show that each individual has an inviolable and invaluable worth and dignity. The relationships between each of the diverse characters of the Fellowship are created through their shared values. Indeed, the Fellowship emerges with its own culture of friendship, loyalty, courage and self-sacrifice. > > 2. **Subsidiarity (that no higher-level community should strip other people of their capacity to see, judge and act on their own behalf).** The minions of the malevolent Lord Sauron seek to possess the Ring and dominate all of creation rather than empower each culture to contribute to the earth’s common good. The principle of subsidiarity is both lived and threatened in The Lord of the Rings. > > According to Professor Foster, the worldview of The Lord of the Rings is one that is against totalitarianism, which contradicts almost all principles of social justice. > > 1. **That the common good be the determinant of economic social organization.** The hobbits are small in stature but large in heart. > > Their social organization attests to how this principle operates in a community that shares the same values; when the communities of Rohan (Riddermark) and the Rohirrim must band together to protect themselves from attack and annihilation, it is not the evil ambition of one (Wormtongue) that prevails, but the good of all. > > 4) **The universal distribution of goods because ownership of property is not an absolute right.** Again, the hobbits and their communal, tranquil life bear witness to the benefit of sharing the material goods that they need to live on—the virtue that Sister Joan Chittister, O.S.B., calls “enoughness.” > > 1. **Solidarity, the alternative to globalization, based on empathy for others.** The Fellowship of the Ring personifies the principle of solidarity, just as the dramatic battle to possess the Ring for its power exemplifies its opposite: selfishness. Solidarity is about love and caring for others, not about power. > > The friendship between the hobbits Frodo and Samwise (and Pippin and Merry), as well as the friendship between the dwarf Gimli and the elf Legolas, forms a bond of solidarity between different individuals and cultures, a bond that inspires hope for the good of all the oppressed. > > 1. **An option for the poor from the social, economic and cultural vantage point of the least among us.** Who is the least among all the characters in The Lord of the Rings? Is it, perhaps, the odd creature Gollum, who will play such a pivotal part in the resolution of the epic journey of Frodo and his companions? Or the group that is the most disenfranchised? > > “There is a moving illustration of a disenfranchised group in ‘The Ride of the Rohirrim’ in The Return of the King,” says Sister Sean Mayer, a Daughter of St. Paul and also a Tolkien Meister. “It is about Ghân-buri-Ghân and his people. It’s one of the hundred meandering sub-sub-subplots that could easily be left out of the movie, but their story is a fine example of this principle of social justice.” > > 1. **The integrity of creation.** This principle has recently been more developed by the Church than those mentioned above. In recent years Pope John Paul II has addressed care for the environment consistently in his January 1 World Day of Peace messages. This theme is also a favorite of Tolkien who mourned the industrialization of the English countryside and the ravages of war on the land and its peoples. When Merry and Pippin encounter the Ents in Fangorn Forest, we listen to what the voice of creation might tell us about the consequences of our irresponsibility regarding our world. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/8 "2003-12-03T15:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asylum \* > \*\*Thanks for starting this thread, **Astro**. I’d been meaning to start a thread on this exact topic because I’m constantly surprised by how unaware people are about the Christian themes in LOTR and find it ironic that a great many self described pagans absolutely love Tolkien’s work and what its surface themes seem to present while not knowing what Tolkien was truly driving at. > \*\* While there are Christian themes, there’s also a lot of Norse influence in the book. Tolkien obviously got some inspiration from the Ring Of The Niebelung (the same story Wagner based the operas on). Gandalf the Grey fits descriptions of Odin/Wotan pretty well. Except that he has both eyes. His dwarves are from Norse mythology (I could be more specific. But I don’t know where I put the list giving the various types.). ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/9 "2003-12-03T17:10:27Z")
I too am enjoying this thread (while I’d like to also note that no one has to buy into the Christian religion to enjoy the LOTR story as story - books or movie version). My little contribution: The Christian concept of Grace is important to the story. That is to say, mankind, being flawed with original sin and imperfect, cannot save itself. But all can be saved from sin, and from the Fall. All are open to Redemption. But they need help from the creator. So, no one in Middle Earth, not even Frodo could destroy the Ring on his or her own. Therefore, only since Frodo had shown pity and kindness to Gollum, was Frodo able to succeed in his quest. DRAT - I didn’t explain that very well… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/10 "2003-12-03T18:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > While there are Christian themes, there’s also a lot of Norse influence in the book. Tolkien obviously got some inspiration from the Ring Of The Niebelung (the same story Wagner based the operas on). Gandalf the Grey fits descriptions of Odin/Wotan pretty well. Except that he has both eyes. His dwarves are from Norse mythology (I could be more specific. But I don’t know where I put the list giving the various types.). The Norse influence is style, though, not the substance. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/11 "2003-12-03T21:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bienville \* > **O.K., so you _really_ don’t see any possible problem with this? This would mean that the 25th would always have to be a Friday. Setting constants for religious observance is one thing but manipulating the calendar so that a particular date always falls on the same day of the week is an entirely different thing. The most “constant” that they could get would be to set that Easter would be always on the 4th Sunday of March (or last Sunday of March or whatever).** **Lissla** , was close with the historical significance of the March 25 date, but she was a bit off. 25 March is the date of the _first_ Good Friday according to Old English tradition. The first link I gave above talks about this. It also mentions that the fellowship leaves Rivendall on Christmas. Interesting bookmarks in the quest to destroy the Ring, don’t you think? **Smiling Bandit** , you put that far more succinctly than I would have. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/12 "2003-12-03T22:08:16Z")
As a devout agnostic 🙂 I find Tolkien’s treatment of religion in LOTR fascinating. There is no simply mention of worship in Middle Earth beyond the briefest of mentions in the Window on the West chapter. When you read his letters, you come to understand that Tolkien took the issue of subcreation very seriously. While the Valar might have godlike powers, it would be presumptuous and even blasphemous to describe these fictional creations as gods and have the inhabitants of Middle Earth worship them. So you’ll find no temples or priests or religious ceremonies in Tolkien … even though he was a devout Catholic. While there’s no religion as such in Middle Earth, LOTR is certainly full of religous themes. well I’m back summed up the central theme, Grace, very nicely. If you think about LOTR keeping Grace and Tolkien’s hatred of allegory in mind, you’ll realize that Frodo and Gandalf are not really Christ figures. They have no power to save others. Gandalf is in essence an angel, sent on an errand by a higher power but definitely not divine himself; he has free will and is suceptible to error and corruption just like anyone in Middle Earth. (As was Sauron, a fallen angel.) Frodo is an ordinary person struggling with evil, not a savior. No matter how much you admire his struggle, in end he loses his struggle and is saved only by Divine Grace. Yet the struggle is necessary because if you despair (as did, say, Denethor) the chance for redemption is lost. If you had to sum up LOTR in a sentence, it would be “a race between Despair and Grace.” To be sure, Gandalf goes through the whole death and resurrection thing, but that element is common in all sorts of pagan myths as well as Christianity … another similarity in style, but not in substance. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/13 "2003-12-03T23:32:32Z")
But the days of the week in the hobbit calendar and the dates do always line up. To make this happen, midsummer holidays aren’t a part of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/14 "2003-12-04T03:39:15Z")
In part, you have to understand that many values, that we might consider fairly universal and not particular to Christianity, Tolkien DID consider distinctly Christian: things like sacrifice for others. Grace is the major theme that’s at least somewhat more exclusively Christian, and it’s mostly already been well covered. There are also hints throughout the book that someone is arranging things to help those who want help and acknowledge their own need of it (for instance, note how Elrond describes the strange coincidence of all the people coming to the council: without him summoning them). You might also notice that Frodo once or twice appeals to Valar in a way similar to way that someone might invoke a saint to find help, and these names indeed act as wards against evil. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/15 "2003-12-04T04:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > So you’ll find no temples or priests or religious ceremonies in Tolkien … even though he was a devout Catholic. Not in _Lord of the Rings_, but in the _Akallabeth_ (published with _The Silmarillion_), there’s a description of the Numenoreans’ religious observances atop a kigh mountain regarded as sacred to Illuvatar (Elvish name for God). The King is the officiator of these observances, though, and nobody else is described in a priestly role. In addition to religion, _The Silmarillion_ also has a good deal more theology than _LotR_. There are only three or four mentions of God in _LotR_, all of them rather oblique, but there are several direct and explicit divine acts in _The Silmarillion_. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/16 "2003-12-04T07:03:09Z")
And the appendices of _The Lord of the Rings_ address spiritual and religious matters more directly than does the main narrative section. For instance, the hero in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” looks forward to life after death. Tolkien tried to make his mythological world compatible with his beliefs: one almighty lord of creation attended by a host of subservient spiritual beings, a divine plan that allows for free will, the importance of trying to do the right thing and the inevitability of getting things wrong, but he wasn’t writing an allegory or a religious tract. > [@](#): > > “The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.” > … > > " I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse ‘applicability’ with ‘allegory’; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/17 "2003-12-04T07:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Not in _Lord of the Rings_, but in the _Akallabeth_ (published with _The Silmarillion_)…there are several direct and explicit divine acts in _The Silmarillion_. \*\* Firstly, **Chronos** is right about “The Silmarillion” and indeed the far larger “Book(s) of Lost Tales”. A required footnote, I reckon, is JRR Tolkien was not living when these books were published. His son, CRJ Tolkien, was mostly credited as Editor - and to be fair he often noted taking a map, or quote, from the margin scribblings of his dad. I’d say the penultimate event in the First Age was the magnificent, daring and banned voyage Earendil the Mariner, bearing the Silmaril his Grandfather had cut off Morgoth’s crown - and his wife Elwing - to the West - only to find the whole lot of them celebrating (something). I’ll go with **Wumpus** on Agnosticism over any other religous-theme. That said, Sauron takes over that Numenorean temple, right, **Chronos**? Sauron _inspires_ the so-called Dark Numenoreans - Witch King et al - yet clearly he does not imbue them with power. In fact, he corrupts their will (and power) to himself. What if there were a Dark Lord and your God(s) didn’t care? ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/18 "2003-12-04T07:42:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TWDuke \* > \*\*And the appendices of _The Lord of the Rings_ address spiritual and religious matters more directly than does the main narrative section. For instance, the hero in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” looks forward to life after death. > \*\* You must mean ‘The Tale of Beren and Luthien’ - even as told by Aragorn to the Hobbit’s on Weathertop. Luthien and Beren do return (after a nasty run-in with Sauron) to live as humans in Beleriand. Or JRR’s tale of Nimrodel and Amroth (another human-elf relationship). JRR conceived of the First Age stuffs before writing “The Hobbitt”. He pretty much snuck stuff about Gondolin - even Moria - into that book. I reckon when his character ‘Strider’ sat back and smoked a pipe with the hobbit’s on Weathertop, and told them of Beren and Luthien - that it was then JRR realized _who_ Strider was. \ That must have been cool \ ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/19 "2003-12-04T14:04:19Z")
Well, Aragorn does say, “In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of this world, and beyond there is more than memory.” when he lays himself on his bier. Thanks for the correction. Yeah, wasn’t Aragorn originally a hobbit called Trotter or something? Not quite so heroic. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668/20 "2003-12-04T23:20:50Z")
> [@](#): > > That said, Sauron takes over that Numenorean temple, right, Chronos? There was never a temple atop Meneltamir; it was just a natural flat mountaintop used for worship. But Sauron does later build a great temple in Numenor dedicated to the worship of Melkor, with the standard old lies that Melkor is the original one and Illuvatar is just some usurper. As regards those celebrations in the West (they were also busy partying when Morgoth and Ungoliant attacked the Trees), it gets kind of hard to define “religion” when you’re bumping elbows with archangels on a daily basis. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-considered-lotr-a-christian-work-how/216668.md?page=2)