# Tolkien fans--so...Orcs are mutilated Elves? Wha..? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 6, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034 "2014-03-06T18:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/21 "2014-03-07T08:48:32Z")
Ugluk and Grishnakh were following different masters. That’s what made them funny. Shagrat and Gorbag were arguing technicalities. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/22 "2014-03-07T11:46:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IIRC, there’s a bit in ROTK where (Sam?) overhears a pair of orcs talking amongst themselves as if they were just two regular guys who’d been conscripted into Sauron’s army. I got the impression that there must be some sort of “civilian” orc populations out in the hinterlands of Mordor, with families and farms and markets and all, and that the orcs the heroes of the book actually encounter are either just savages or the worst of the worst. That was two Southrons (or was it Easterlings?). In any case - it was two men. Brian ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/23 "2014-03-07T12:02:39Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > The dwarves were already alive and sentient when Eru caught Aule. No they weren’t - they were motivated soleby by his will, and it isn’t until he moves to smite them and they react, that they respond as sentient beings. That’s Eru’s doing. > [@](#): > > What about the ents? We don’t know their true origin, only that it might have been the Elves waking them. Are you claiming the _Elves_ can create sentient life, now? > [@](#): > > What about Morgoth’s creations? Per Tolkien himself, Morgoth could only corrupt, not create. Frodo is quoted as saying “The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them …” and in letter #151, Tolkien says _Frodo_ was right, and _Treebeard_ was wrong to say they were “created in mockery” > [@the\_diego](#): > > Ugluk and Grishnakh were following different masters. That doesn’t excuse the complaints about the food. > [@](#): > > That’s what made them funny. Shagrat and Gorbag were arguing technicalities. “Arguing technicalities”? That’s an interesting interpretation for the stab-in-the-back deadly fight that happens in the Tower. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/24 "2014-03-07T12:07:03Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > The dwarves were already alive and sentient when Eru caught Aule. I don’t think so. Going by a cached blog post that appears to copy the Silmarillion text: > [@](#): > > Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë’s work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Ilúvatar spoke to him; and Aulë heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: ‘Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire? After Aulë responded by offering up the Dwarves to Ilúvatar, he took up his hammer to destroy them. At that point: > [@](#): > > And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’ I don’t remember what happened with the Ents, but as for Morgoth, most of the prominent creatures on his side (Balrogs, Dragons) were embodiments of Maiar, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/25 "2014-03-07T12:08:11Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > That was two Southrons (or was it Easterlings?). In any case - it was two men. No, I think the reference is to Gorbag and Shagrat reminiscing about the “Good Old Days” and “The Great Siege” (almost as if they’d been there!) ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/26 "2014-03-07T12:24:15Z")
It only just occurred to me, and I’m pretty sure it’s not addressed anywhere in Tolkien’s writings, but his pal C.S. Lewis was of the opinion that eternal life in the absence of grace would turn into a literal hell for an individual, whence he couldn’t be retrieved even by the love of God. Take an ordinary person who has even just a mildly bad temper or tendency toward peevishness and raise it to the power of ten thousand years, and that peevishness would be compounded into a towering demonic rage. And many (if not all?) of the orcs may have gone through exactly that experience as they were ground down through millennia of beatings, hard beds and bad food – if, say, they were the one and the same orcs that survived the siege of Angband (as MrDibble hints above). And an orc that did have a chance at redemption? Hacked down ten thousand years ago by Gothmog and company, when he had the poor judgment to comment on the beauty of the sunset. Too bad, so sad. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/27 "2014-03-07T12:46:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IIRC, there’s a bit in ROTK where (Sam?) overhears a pair of orcs talking amongst themselves as if they were just two regular guys who’d been conscripted into Sauron’s army. I got the impression that there must be some sort of “civilian” orc populations out in the hinterlands of Mordor, with families and farms and markets and all, and that the orcs the heroes of the book actually encounter are either just savages or the worst of the worst. I know it’s not canon, but in the Rankin-Bass cartoon of ROTK, Samwise even sees a future where hobbits & orcs can live together in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/28 "2014-03-07T13:20:05Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I know it’s not canon, but in the Rankin-Bass cartoon of ROTK, Samwise even sees a future where hobbits & orcs can live together in peace. But that was part of the delusion brought on by his holding the Ring, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/29 "2014-03-07T13:24:00Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > But that was part of the delusion brought on by his holding the Ring, wasn’t it? That was part of the delusion brought on by being forced to be a part of the Rankin Bass production. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/30 "2014-03-07T13:34:23Z")
I liked it, though. _Where there’s a whip (CRACK!) / There’s a way!_ ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/31 "2014-03-07T13:34:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IIRC, there’s a bit in ROTK where (Sam?) overhears a pair of orcs talking amongst themselves as if they were just two regular guys who’d been conscripted into Sauron’s army. I got the impression that there must be some sort of “civilian” orc populations out in the hinterlands of Mordor, with families and farms and markets and all, and that the orcs the heroes of the book actually encounter are either just savages or the worst of the worst. The kind of regular guys they were talking about being, though, were the sort that hang out “with a few trusty lads with good loot nice and handy, and no Big Bosses” --“like old times”. They didn’t like being a cog in Sauron’s world-domination machine - they wanted to be small-time thugs and bandits answerable only to themselves, that’s all. If there are any peaceful farming and marketing orcs, we never hear about them. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/32 "2014-03-07T13:41:24Z")
Hey–just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the info–I’m enjoying learning and reading the discussion! ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/33 "2014-03-07T15:09:15Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I always ask an Orc what his origin is before I pig-stick him. I once shot an orc in Reno to watch him die. And also for 50 experience points. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/34 "2014-03-07T15:22:07Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I liked it, though. _Where there’s a whip (CRACK!) / There’s a way!_ Anyone else sing this song whenever watching that scene in the PJ ROTK ? ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/35 "2014-03-07T17:45:20Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > And Tolkien’s metaphysics were not very strong on “forgiveness.” I’m not really sure I’d agree with that. If anything, I’d argue the opposite. I can think of several places in LOTR where Tolkien went out of his way to show that he didn’t consider evil characters irredeemable. For instance, Frodo understands that the dying Southron soldier was probably not inherently evil; Gandalf (the White) gives Sauruman a chance to repent and join the good guys again (it appears Sauruman considers accepting); and of course Smeagol/Gollum is, with Frodo’s pity and understanding, right on the edge of being redeemed. [stopping before I write a full-blown essay on the contrast between Tolkien’s epic Manichean Good vs Evil stories and his ‘all of us are imperfect but capable of good’ ethics and storytelling] ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/36 "2014-03-07T18:02:27Z")
As far as the Ents go, I think along with the explanation of the dwarves creation, Yavanna goes to Manwe and wants to know who will protect the things that can’t defend themselves like Trees. Manwe consults with Eru and then via Eru magic, the Ents are “born.” Which doesn’t mean they “awaken” before the Elves appear later. As far as the orcs go, in the Lord of the Rings, they seem fit the situation as needed. To me their motivation was mostly fear of Sauron and hatred of everything but orcs. In the Silmarillion we don’t really get much from the orc point of view, except maybe when they were celebrating after getting Barahir’s hand with Felagund’s ring on it. And when they captured Turin. Just brief glimpses, really. Another question: Morgoth created the dragons, didn’t he? It doesn’t really specify how they came about, they just appeared. ---
**Author:** ![Gretchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8edcca/32.png) [@Gretchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretchion)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/37 "2014-03-07T18:11:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > On the other hand, it failed with a Jem’Hadar, who are a lot closer to orcs than Klingons in their origins. Hmm now you’ve got me wondering if they might have had any more luck with the Jem’Hadar child if Worf had been around… maybe he would have had some insight, having gone through the same experience. I’m not saying it would have been a success, but I’m curious to see how Worf would have dealt with him. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/38 "2014-03-07T18:22:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IIRC, there’s a bit in ROTK where (Sam?) overhears a pair of orcs talking amongst themselves as if they were just two regular guys who’d been conscripted into Sauron’s army. I got the impression that there must be some sort of “civilian” orc populations out in the hinterlands of Mordor, with families and farms and markets and all, and that the orcs the heroes of the book actually encounter are either just savages or the worst of the worst. I think the closest orcs get to being civilians is the wild orcs/goblins, like those in The Hobbit or Moria. They still want to raid and kill, but they do it under their own steam. ETA: Farming is tricky when you can’t stand sunlight. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/39 "2014-03-07T18:22:53Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > Another question: Morgoth created the dragons, didn’t he? It doesn’t really specify how they came about, they just appeared. As said above, he couldn’t “create.” What they were derived from, who knows? One thing to note, however, is that successive generations of dragons were tougher than the earlier ones - they didn’t have wings to start with, for instance. This is contrasted by the giant spiders (whose ultimate ancestor, Ungoliant, was about Ainur-level) which were getting smaller and weaker over time. edit: typo ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034/40 "2014-03-07T18:28:11Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > ETA: Farming is tricky when you can’t stand sunlight. I don’t get it. Just because your plants need the sunlight doesn’t mean you have to be there while they use it. What’s the problem with ploughing, sowing, watering, harvesting by night ? (or if there is one, why not just farm 'shrooms in the dank and dark ?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-so-orcs-are-mutilated-elves-wha/683034.md?page=3)