# Tolkien fans: whose fault was the rift between the Dwarves and the Elves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 1, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791 "2010-08-01T14:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/41 "2010-08-02T18:07:35Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Frodo was born a well-off Hobbit. He saved the damn planet. More like _continent_. I think if he’d succeded in making himself overlord of proto-Europe, but then tried to move across the Sea, the Valar would have gotten off their useless (except for Ulmo) asses and done something, if only to say, “Yo! Eru! This being the Third Age & all, and past what we know you have ordained, we’re gonna need you to handle this!” And it’s not as if Sauron was planning to exterminate everybody who wasn’t an Orc anyway. That’s a movie invention. He was into conquest more than genocide. Elves aside, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/42 "2010-08-02T18:09:53Z")
That wasn’t me; it was **smiling bandit**. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/43 "2010-08-02T18:10:37Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > That wasn’t me; it was **smiling bandit**. Already fixed. See above. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/44 "2010-08-02T18:19:36Z")
Ah. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/45 "2010-08-02T18:41:38Z")
The elves had hotter women. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/46 "2010-08-02T18:43:07Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > The elves had hotter women. 🙂 In their own opinion. We don’t know what the Dwarves thought of their women. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/47 "2010-08-02T19:08:24Z")
> [@](#): > > More like continent. I think if he’d succeded in making himself overlord of proto-Europe, but then tried to move across the Sea, the Valar would have gotten off their useless (except for Ulmo) asses and done something, if only to say, “Yo! Eru! This being the Third Age & all, and past what we know you have ordained, we’re gonna need you to handle this!” This was the Third Age, after the shape of the World was changed. If Sauron’s forces had sailed west, they would end up in other mortal lands (which may or may not have been populated) on the other side of the globe, not in the Blessed Lands (which you have to sail straight to reach). > [@](#): > > In their own opinion. We don’t know what the Dwarves thought of their women. Gimli certainly seemed to think that Galadriel and Arwen were hotter than anything the Dwarves had to offer. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/48 "2010-08-02T19:54:27Z")
Q: How do you find a Dwarven woman in the dark? A1: Why would you want to? A2: Follow the scent of her aftershave. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/49 "2010-08-02T20:01:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > More like continent. I think if he’d succeded in making himself overlord of proto-Europe, but then tried to move across the Sea, the Valar would have gotten off their useless (except for Ulmo) asses and done something, if only to say, “Yo! Eru! This being the Third Age & all, and past what we know you have ordained, we’re gonna need you to handle this!” > > This was the Third Age, after the shape of the World was changed. If Sauron’s forces had sailed west, they would end up in other mortal lands (which may or may not have been populated) on the other side of the globe, not in the Blessed Lands (which you have to sail straight to reach). I’m fairly sure that Sauron could have found the Straight Road if he’d wanted it, and perhaps figured out a way for the Orcs (though not the Southrons or Easterlings) to do so as well. That said, my thought was that, once Sauron had conquered the Dunedain, Dwarves, & Elves (or driven the Elves across the Sea) even Manwe the Clueless would have said, “Okay, all the lesser folk who might be seen as remotely responsible for his rise have been put under his heel. Time to stop fooling around. Tulkas, Orome, Eonwe, go do something violent!” > [@Chronos](#): > > Gimli certainly seemed to think that Galadriel and Arwen were hotter than anything the Dwarves had to offer. Gimli was a self-hating Dwarf, everybody knows that. He’s like those black guys who only date white chicks. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/50 "2010-08-02T20:06:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m fairly sure that Sauron could have found the Straight Road if he’d wanted it, and perhaps figured out a way for the Orcs (though not the Southrons or Easterlings) to do so as well. Because the Orcs were (rumored to be) corrupted Elves? Anyway, I’m sure Sauron wanted absolutely nothing to do with the West, given how craven he was at the end of the War of Wrath. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/51 "2010-08-02T20:10:25Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I’m fairly sure that Sauron could have found the Straight Road if he’d wanted it, and perhaps figured out a way for the Orcs (though not the Southrons or Easterlings) to do so as well. > > Because the Orcs were (rumored to be) corrupted Elves? Exactly. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I’m sure Sauron wanted absolutely nothing to do with the West, given how craven he was at the end of the War of Wrath. You’re right there, though I really had the Change of the World in mind. Once he conquered Middle-earth, drove off the remaining Elves, enslaved all the Men, exterminated all the Dwarves, set all the Ents on fire, and baked all the Hobbits into casseroles, he’d have gone East or South rather than West. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/52 "2010-08-02T20:15:04Z")
There’s a difference between hotness and beauty. I, a straight woman, can find another woman beautiful, even almost to the point of reverence, without wanting to sleep with her in the least. That’s the kind of reverence Gimli had for Galadriel’s beauty. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/53 "2010-08-02T20:26:42Z")
Sure, Sauron could probably have sailed the Straight Path if he so chose, but as you point out, he’d be an idiot to so choose. But he could _certainly_ have sailed the non-straight path like everyone else. > [@](#): > > Gimli was a self-hating Dwarf, everybody knows that. He’s like those black guys who only date white chicks. Wait a moment… Don’t you hold up Natalie Portman as the ideal of feminine beauty? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/54 "2010-08-02T20:26:55Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > There’s a difference between hotness and beauty. I, a straight woman, can find another woman beautiful, even almost to the point of reverence, without wanting to sleep with her in the least. That’s the kind of reverence Gimli had for Galadriel’s beauty. Apropos of nothing: I had been wondering if you were female. Or, more accurately, I assumed you were, but then realized I had no idea where I got that impression. On-topic, that’s true. Pretending for a moment that I’m not pretending that the movies don’t exist :D, I don’t find Cate Hudson sexy, but she was quite beautiful enough to play Galadriel. ---
**Author:** ![MN\_Maenad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@MN\_Maenad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MN_Maenad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/55 "2010-08-02T20:34:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t find Cate Hudson sexy, but she was quite beautiful enough to play Galadriel. Psst… Blanchett, not Hudson. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/56 "2010-08-02T20:36:51Z")
> [@MN\_Maenad](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > I don’t find Cate Hudson sexy, but she was quite beautiful enough to play Galadriel. > > Psst… Blanchett, not Hudson. Thank you for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/57 "2010-08-03T12:48:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Oy](#): > > > > There’s a difference between hotness and beauty. I, a straight woman, can find another woman beautiful, even almost to the point of reverence, without wanting to sleep with her in the least. That’s the kind of reverence Gimli had for Galadriel’s beauty. > > Apropos of nothing: I had been wondering if you were female. Or, more accurately, I assumed you were, but then realized I had no idea where I got that impression. > > On-topic, that’s true. Pretending for a moment that I’m not pretending that the movies don’t exist :D, I don’t find Cate Hudson sexy, but she was quite beautiful enough to play Galadriel. Possibly because I corrected a reference to myself in one of the recent Tolkien threads, stating that I was a she, not a he. [Hijack]Oddly, while I thought Cate Blanchett did a wonderful job playing Galadriel and also that Liv Tyler did a fine job with Arwen, I did not personally think either of them to be remotely as beautiful as my mind had pictured Galadriel and Arwen to be. They and Jackson managed to pull it off very well, but neither woman is what I consider to be beautiful at all - very attractive women, but not beauties. Before the movies were cast, I spent a long time trying to think of women who could play these most beautiful women of Middle Earth, and never did come up with a satisfactory answer. John Rhys-Davies said that he thought of his own personal reaction to seeing Julie Harris years ago while playing those scenes, and I guess a younger Julie Harris might have been a good candidate. But it’s not so easy, finding women who are extremely beautiful without the slightest hint of cuteness, who are stately without the faintest whiff of the matronly. And they had to be tall; this was one situation in which camera tricks wouldn’t be sufficient. Plus they needed to be real actresses; standing and posing wasn’t going to be enough. Maybe Jackson did the only thing he could do, which was to take attractive actresses, and have them lit and playing the role of being breathtakingly beautiful.[/Hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/58 "2010-08-03T16:30:04Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > … Once [Sauron] conquered Middle-earth, drove off the remaining Elves, enslaved all the Men, exterminated all the Dwarves, set all the Ents on fire, and baked all the Hobbits into casseroles, he’d have gone East or South rather than West. Agreed. Tolkien even thought at one time that maybe the two Blue Wizards, Gandalf’s colleagues, had gone east and turned to evil, so Sauron might’ve found a very receptive audience for his own particular brand of tyranny once he got there. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791/59 "2010-08-03T17:53:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, Sauron could probably have sailed the Straight Path if he so chose, but as you point out, he’d be an idiot to so choose. But he could _certainly_ have sailed the non-straight path like everyone else. > > > [@](#): > > > > Gimli was a self-hating Dwarf, everybody knows that. He’s like those black guys who only date white chicks. > > Wait a moment… Don’t you hold up Natalie Portman as the ideal of feminine beauty? I was mocking myself, **Chronos**. Are you new to my threads? 😉 ETA: Natalie isn’t in fact the ideal of feminine beauty in my eyes; rather, she is the currently the most beautiful famous woman I can think of, which is not quite the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-whose-fault-was-the-rift-between-the-dwarves-and-the-elves/548791.md?page=2)