# Tolkien fans: would it be far to call Gandalf a manipulative bastard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628 "2011-05-03T22:09:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/1 "2011-05-03T22:09:08Z")
In an otherwise unrelated thread currently running in CS, someone writes: > [@](#): > > There are some twists on convention [in the Starz version of _Camelot_], some good, some meh. I like that Arthur’s adopted brother Kay is shown as a supportive mentor and ally - a true big brother, instead of the resentful and jealous douche that he often is. **Merlin is shown to be kind of a dick and a manipulator. More Karl Rove than Gandalf, and he (to this point) refuses to do magic**. The person who wrote this is not, to my knowledge, a Tolkien fan (though I could easily be wrong; it’s not like I keep a list). Anyway, the bit I bolded struck me as odd. Gandalf strikes me as an inveterate manipulator, particuarly if you’ve read the LotR Appendices. But that’s just me. Would you call Gandalf a manipulative dick? A master manipulator? Something else entirely? Why? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/2 "2011-05-03T22:20:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > it’s not like I keep a list Well, not about THIS, anyway… I’d say that Gandalf is a manipulative bastard, but a relatively benign one. He’s not manipulating to advance any personal agenda, but to assure a good outcome for all of the Free Peoples. And he can’t be TOO manipulative…Free Will is paramount in Tolkien’s universe. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/3 "2011-05-03T22:23:55Z")
Sure, and in addition to jayjay’s excellent point, it’s not like he’s hiding behind it. He took many significant personal risks during the whole ordeal, including personal combat with a Balrog. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/4 "2011-05-03T22:30:59Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Sure, and in addition to jayjay’s excellent point, it’s not like he’s hiding behind it. He took many significant personal risks during the whole ordeal, including personal combat with a Balrog. Gandalf could have saved everyone a lot of grief if he just had the King of the Eagles fly Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the ring in it. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/5 "2011-05-03T22:36:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > It’s not like I keep a list > > Well, not about THIS, anyway… :: lights cigarette, takes a long drag :: You know, those are some nice islets of Langerhans you have there. Be a real shame if something happened to them. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Gandalf could have saved everyone a lot of grief if he just had the King of the Eagles fly Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the ring in it. :: ticks off mark on paper :: That’s one. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/6 "2011-05-03T22:42:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Gandalf could have saved everyone a lot of grief if he just had the King of the Eagles fly Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the ring in it. Oh no, sir. I shall not be trapped by this pernicious and persistent nerd argument. Suffice to say that I disagree. Also on Gandalf’s behalf, put yourself in his place. He was, as far as we know, the very last of the Istari who was actually doing his job with regard to fighting Sauron. The Blue Wizards had failed their task long ago. Saruman, the most powerful of the Istari, had betrayed the Free Peoples and sided with Sauron. Radagast was doing mushrooms somewhere in the ruins of Dol Guldur (I know, I know, tending the beasts and plants of Middle Earth could very well have been Radagast’s mission, given that he was chosen by Yavanna.) All I’m saying is that Gandalf must have felt pretty freaking lonesome, trying to subtly marshal his forces wherever he could, especially given the fact that, even as a Maia, he was afraid of Sauron, and didn’t want the job to begin with. Then, of course, he was forbidden to try to match Sauron strength for strength. So really, all he had was manipulation. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/7 "2011-05-03T22:45:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You know, those are some nice islets of Langerhans you have there. Be a real shame if something happened to them. Mother Nature beat you to it, man… ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/8 "2011-05-03T22:45:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Gandalf could have saved everyone a lot of grief if he just had the King of the Eagles fly Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the ring in it. Why not a [catapult?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pe80opA9ZA) ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/9 "2011-05-03T22:47:59Z")
> [@Astroboy14](#): > > Why not a catapult? Well shit, Sauron, compared to Manwe Sulimo, was a pissant. Why didn’t the lord of the Valar just magic Sauron’s butt over for a spanking? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/10 "2011-05-03T22:50:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Well shit, Sauron, compared to Manwe Sulimo, was a pissant. Why didn’t the lord of the Valar just magic Sauron’s butt over for a spanking? Because the last time that kind of thing happened, it drowned a third of Middle-Earth? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/11 "2011-05-03T22:53:12Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Mother Nature beat you to it, man… Hmm. I forgot you were a member of our august order of the Twinkie-deprived. Ah well, There’s always your major calyx. > [@jayjay](#): > > Because the last time that kind of thing happened, it drowned a third of Middle-Earth? Also bear in mind that by the end of the Third Age, history had progressed past the point where the Ainur knew what was “meant” to happen. And even at earlier points in the Song, they never fully understood the nature of the Children, and especially men. Manwë, wanker though he was, was rightfully chary of intervening by power. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/12 "2011-05-03T23:22:38Z")
Yes, Gandalf was a manipulative bastard. That was his job. He spent all of the Third Age learning about Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Elves precisely so that he could manipulate them when the time came. It wasn’t because he loved Middle Earth, although he came to appreciate it. As **jayjay** pointed out, it wasn’t as if he was saying “let’s you and him fight.” He put himself at risk constantly. Hell, he _died_, and it wasn’t to protect himself. He could easily have escaped the Balrog; just toss Pippin to it to devour. He was there to inspire. And inspiration is a form of manipulation, at least when you’re doing it on purpose, which he certainly was. He was there to shape events, which is certainly manipulation. Every leader manipulates people, sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly, but they all do it. It’s what defines them as leaders, the fact that they can get people to do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. A good leader does this on behalf of the people he rules, and Gandalf certainly fits that category. Of all the beings in Middle Earth, perhaps only Saruman knew as well or better what Sauron could do, and Saruman was so frightened that he joined lest he be Sauron’s victim (and in doing so, became his tool instead). The Elves were too apart from Men, and Aragorn, able as he was, simply couldn’t have done it alone. He was a remarkable man, but still just a man. **Ogre** ’s right. Gandalf manipulated because it was the primary tool he had, and because there just wasn’t anybody else to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/13 "2011-05-03T23:30:03Z")
Of course he was manipulative, as he himself would be the first to admit (though he’d probably prefer the word “inspiring”). Doesn’t make him a bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/14 "2011-05-03T23:33:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course he was manipulative, as he himself would be the first to admit (though he’d probably prefer the word “inspiring”). Doesn’t make him a bastard. Some of the greatest figures in history were bastards! Arthur, Herakles, Jesus, the list goes on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/15 "2011-05-03T23:42:24Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Well shit, Sauron, compared to Manwe Sulimo, was a pissant. Why didn’t the lord of the Valar just magic Sauron’s butt over for a spanking? See Sauron’s take on the whole thing here: [Sauron’s blog](http://www.sauronsblog.com/?page_id=29) (I am not an evil lighthouse.) In that blog, Sauron has a few things to say about Manwë (aka “the dickless prick”) and Manwë’s overall inability to get things accomplished. > [@](#): > > Well, everything has gone to shit, and there’s no one to blame but that little prick Manwë. That dickless little suckup has ruined everything! > > So Melkor and I managed to get the Disc of Arda built, with some help from that moron Aulë, yes, but mostly it was us and the Fire Spirits. > > Then it was time to order the rest of creation; the airs and the flora and the fauna and all that. Melkor, the Greatest of the Valar, called everybody together to manage this whole affair, because we can’t have Ainur running around just putting anything anywhere, “poof” there’s a tree, “poof” there’s a cloud. Also Sauron wasn’t too impressed with Melkor’s management of things by the end of the First Age. > [@](#): > > So much to do, and so few centuries to do it. > > I’m ready to start building my Black Spiky Tower of Unimaginable Evil. All the pieces are in place, and I’ve pretty much cornered the Endorian market in obsidian. In the process, Mordor has shaped up nicely into a real nation. I’m especially proud that the Orcs, for so long subjugated under Melkor’s careless rule and hunted by Elves and Men, finally have an ethnic homeland of their own, where they can stand tall and proud, enslaved under my despotic theocracy. Gandalf was perhaps the most faithful and successful of the agents of Iluvatar. I suspect Gandalf, while technically acting according to the will of the Valar, was in reality more guided by Eru’s inspiration than anything else. (No cites, based on personal correspondence with Olorin, Eru, and a chance encounter with Ingwë.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/16 "2011-05-03T23:50:01Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Gandalf was perhaps the most faithful and successful of the agents of Iluvatar. I suspect Gandalf, while technically acting according to the will of the Valar, was in reality more guided by Eru’s inspiration than anything else. (No cites, based on personal correspondence with Olorin, Eru, and a chance encounter with Ingwë.) > > 😃 I don’t know how true that was of Gandalf the Grey, but I think the Greater Perfesser writes in _Letters_ someplace that it was Eru in particular who sent Gandalf back as the White. Certainly in the most crucial phase of the War of the Ring, he was acting as the All-Father’s agent, not the Valar’s. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/17 "2011-05-03T23:56:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Because the last time that kind of thing happened, it drowned a third of Middle-Earth? Fine. Then just send Tulkas over to pick him up by the scruff of the neck. You know he’d love to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/18 "2011-05-04T01:32:25Z")
Yes, manipulative, but no, not a bastard. Gandalf AKA Mithrandir AKA Tharkun AKA Stormcrow AKA Olorin did what he had to do to inspire, goad, nag, pester, rally, marshal and ultimately thus save the Free Peoples, carrying out the mission on which he had been sent all those long centuries before. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/19 "2011-05-04T02:57:58Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > The Blue Wizards had failed their task long ago. I am so tired fo this canard. Dammit, just because the Blue Wizards don’t appear in the narrative doesn’t mean they “failed” or anything. They went into the east and apparently were undermining Sauron there. We don’t know what they did or didn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![Anise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anise/32/21721_2.png) [@Anise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anise)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/20 "2011-05-04T04:11:11Z")
You know, this entire thing just seems to me as if someone got confused and slipped in “Gandalf” for “Dumbledore”, more than anything else. Now, _there_ was a manipulative sociopath, if ever there was one in fantasy lit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628.md?page=2)