# Tolkien fans: would it be far to call Gandalf a manipulative bastard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 3, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628 "2011-05-03T22:09:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/21 "2011-05-04T04:58:11Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I am so tired fo this canard. Dammit, just because the Blue Wizards don’t appear in the narrative doesn’t mean they “failed” or anything. They went into the east and apparently were undermining Sauron there. We don’t know what they did or didn’t do. It’s unclear. The Professor himself said that he suspected they failed. On the other hand, he also said that they may have been spectacularly successful in their own theater, far away from Gondor and Mordor. Either way, my point stands. Gandalf probably had no way of knowing what they were doing, or if they were even still alive, and thus still felt alone against Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/22 "2011-05-04T05:47:59Z")
i thought the istari were sent to ME with express orders? exhort the children to fight sauron without actually forcing them (through one’s maiar powers or deceit.) anyone of the nine walkers understood gandalf’s objective and they knew he’d pursue it with or without them. ---
**Author:** ![ZYPeng](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9f8e36/32.png) [@ZYPeng](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZYPeng)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/23 "2011-05-04T06:36:51Z")
Also on Gandalf’s behalf, put [LA escort](http://www.laasianescort.com/) yourself in his place. He was, as far as we know, the [LA escorts](http://www.laasianescort.com/) very last of the Istari who was actually doing his job with [LA asian [URL=http://www.laasianescort.com/]LA asian escorts](http://www.laasianescort.com/) escort regard to fighting Sauron. The Blue Wizards had failed their task long ago. Saruman, the most powerful of the Istari, had betrayed the Free Peoples and sided with Sauron. Radagast was doing mushrooms somewhere in the ruins of Dol Guldur (I know, I know, tending the beasts and plants of Middle Earth could very well have been Radagast’s mission, given that he was chosen by Yavanna.) ---
**Author:** ![ZYPeng](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9f8e36/32.png) [@ZYPeng](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZYPeng)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/24 "2011-05-04T06:38:30Z")
It’s unclear. The Professor [LA escort](http://www.laasianescort.com/) himself said that he suspected they failed. [LA escorts](http://www.laasianescort.com/) On the other hand, he also said that they may have been [LA asian escort](http://www.laasianescort.com/) spectacularly successful in their own theater, [LA asian escorts](http://www.laasianescort.com/) far away from Gondor and Mordor. Either way, my point stands. Gandalf probably had no way of knowing what they were doing, or if they were even still alive, and thus still felt alone against Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/25 "2011-05-04T09:30:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Gandalf could have saved everyone a lot of grief if he just had the King of the Eagles fly Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the ring in it. Like [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/26 "2011-05-04T09:40:58Z")
not likely that the eagles would cooperate in directly un-making sauron’s ring. i’m basing this from reading only the trilogy, the hobbit and the silmarillon. the eagles, i assume, are also maiars (at least gwaihir the lord of the eagles, who is descended from thorondor.) and just like tom bombadil who is also probably a maiar, he will not do it for the sake of the children of eru. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/27 "2011-05-04T10:16:29Z")
I don’t know that Gandalf was a manipulative bastard as much as an outright overbearing dick. When he recruits Bilbo, he doesn’t subtly convince him to go along with the dwarves, he just invites himself in and goes “well, you’re coming with us so be sure to pack your shit, all right ? Cheers !” Same with Theoden - Gandalf just waltzes into court unannounced, throws a fit, summarily dismisses the king’s advisor and tells Theoden King he’s going to help Gondor right now and fucking like it. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/28 "2011-05-04T10:39:28Z")
in bilbo’s case, i can understand gandalf’s decision since he was concerned about the dragon at that point during the third age, and this called for stealth (ergo, a hobbit.) in theoden’s case, rohan was a pivotal ally of gondor. both sides knew this. gandalf was undoing the treachery of wormtongue, who was a puppet of saruman and, in effect, sauron. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/29 "2011-05-04T11:00:28Z")
Hey, I didn’t say he was _wrong_. Just that to me, he wasn’t really manipulative per se. Wormtongue is manipulative. Gandalf just yells at people until they do what he says. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/30 "2011-05-04T11:11:30Z")
agreed, but i thought his attitude was more a case of him knowing you better than you yourself. his treatment of bilbo and frodo were consistent (a bit deeper for frodo.) pippin was always the foolish took that he was. he was overly respectful of those whose help he required and wielded powers similar to his (beorn and the eagles.) when dealing with lords and royalty, that’s when he tended to be over-bearing (you call yourself a king?) so on the whole, i would pronounce him assholic in the way he related with different people. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/31 "2011-05-04T13:23:44Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > …[H]e was overly respectful of those whose help he required and wielded powers similar to his (beorn and the eagles.)… I wouldn’t say he was overly respectful of them. I think he was just as respectful as he had to be, under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/32 "2011-05-04T15:15:42Z")
Bah…Gandalf was a non-dpsing waste of a raid slot. \ ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/33 "2011-05-04T15:21:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Bah…Gandalf was a non-dpsing waste of a raid slot. > > \ **Oak, Oak, Oak**. Though I generally agree with you on matters of Southern cuisine, capital punishment, and foreign affairs, you so tragically misled on this issue that you might as well be from New York. Or, worse, Los Angeles. Gandalf’s using his full angelic power was not merely forbidden to him by his superiors, but actually contraindicated by their mission. The Istari’s job was not to defeat Sauron; if such were the aim, Manwë would have sent Tulkas and Oromë and what’s-his-name who’s now a Dope member to do the job in the first place. The Istari were suppose to guide and inspire the inhabitants of Middle-earth (read: Men, as the Elves had begun clearing out even before Gandalf & co. arrived) to overcome the Enemy themselves, to be independent of the need for Ainuric intervention. Using super-powers would not have helped in that. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/34 "2011-05-04T15:27:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The Istari’s job was not to defeat Sauron; if such were the aim, Manwë would have sent Tulkas and Oromë and what’s-his-name who’s now a Dope member… Qadgop? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/35 "2011-05-04T15:29:20Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **Oak, Oak, Oak**. Though I generally agree with you on matters of Southern cuisine, capital punishment, and foreign affairs, you so tragically misled on this issue that you might as well be from New York. Or, worse, Los Angeles. > > Gandalf’s using his full angelic power was not merely forbidden to him by his superiors, but actually contraindicated by their mission. The Istari’s job was not to defeat Sauron; if such were the aim, Manwë would have sent Tulkas and Oromë and what’s-his-name who’s now a Dope member to do the job in the first place. The Istari were suppose to guide and inspire the inhabitants of Middle-earth (read: Men, as the Elves had begun clearing out even before Gandalf & co. arrived) to overcome the Enemy themselves, to be independent of the need for Ainuric intervention. Using super-powers would not have helped in that. Back in my military days, we had a saying about how it was better to take the shot and ask for forgiveness later than to not take the shot waiting for permission to fire. Same principle applies here. At Helm’s Deep, a couple of “Cloud Kill” spells, or at least a few fireballs, and the orc army is no longer a problem. Saves little Timmy (or whatever the kid’s name was) all the anxiety of suiting up for battle (movie version)…and if properly timed would secure victory for Gimli over Legolas in the final DPS standings. Who wants a damn elf to claim victory over a dwarf? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/36 "2011-05-04T15:37:37Z")
If you want a character who is a manipulative bastard, and **knows** it, and is not entirely comfortable with it, but still manipulates people again and again for the greater good even when he knows it might get the person he’s using killed, see Shef in [_The Hammer and the Cross_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hammer_and_the_Cross) and sequels, by Harry Harrison. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/37 "2011-05-04T16:18:26Z")
> [@Anise](#): > > You know, this entire thing just seems to me as if someone got confused and slipped in “Gandalf” for “Dumbledore”, more than anything else. Now, _there_ was a manipulative sociopath, if ever there was one in fantasy lit. Bingo. Gandalf can’t hold a Phial to Dumbledore’s schemes. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/38 "2011-05-04T17:23:12Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Who wants a damn elf to claim victory over a dwarf? The elf sure does, for one. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/39 "2011-05-04T17:50:49Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Yes, manipulative, but no, not a bastard. Gandalf AKA Mithrandir AKA Tharkun AKA Stormcrow AKA Olorin did what he had to do to inspire, goad, nag, pester, rally, marshal and ultimately thus save the Free Peoples, carrying out the mission on which he had been sent all those long centuries before. Fighting ignorance since the Third Age, dontcha know. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628/40 "2011-05-04T18:27:01Z")
“Gandalf, you magnificent bastard, _I read your book_!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-fans-would-it-be-far-to-call-gandalf-a-manipulative-bastard/580628.md?page=3)