# Tolkien & PJ: Keeping the brothers down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 30, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787 "2003-12-30T16:32:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/1 "2003-12-30T16:32:34Z")
**The Racist Tapestry of Lord of the Rings** [Whee](http://paris.indymedia.org/article.php3?id_article=13086) > [@](#): > > I don’t imagine that it was the intention of the director or the producers of the Lord of the Rings films to paint a racist stereotypical tapestry over what could be described as a basic set of principles of humanity’s behavior in the natural environment and with each other. However, the fact is that the only people of skin color in the entire three part series of films are all associated with the Dark Lord Sauron, the destruction of the earth and all of its occupants. I’ll leave the bulk of this to the minions here…but “people of skin color”? What the hell? Am I transparent? My skin lacks any color? You may think the piece is a joke…but I’m thinking it seems in line with the [rest](http://dadapop.com/) of his stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/2 "2003-12-30T17:10:31Z")
Geez, Orcs and Uruk Hai don’t look like any human ethnic group _I’ve_ ever seen… But now that I think about it, they _were_ all marked with a _white hand_, and organized by Sauroman _the White_. I’m _so_ tired of movies conforming to the easy _cliche_ of the white Nabob exploiting the masses for their own profit. And what’s with all the homophobia? Why is the graceless world of men called the “Bent World” and the Elves’ secret path “The Straight Road”? Heterosexism, that’s why! And why are dairy products only applied to the _top side_ of bread? It’s a Zook conspiracy, I tell ya. To the ramparts! (One thing that buddy’s post establishes, anyway, is that neither a surplus of time nor a tendancy to talk nonsense are attributes that are exclusive to Tolkien fans.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/3 "2003-12-30T17:21:03Z")
“… a “crusade” against the “evil doers” in nations that white people have been invading, terrorizing, raping and pillaging in for 5000 years with zero provocation…” Hmmmmmm. Coulda sworn that that it was folks from the MidEast who spent most of that time invading each other. “And what about the Ancient Picts, a tattooed darker skinned cultured that once dominant in the UK” Say WHAT? Scotsmen used to be Negroid? ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/4 "2003-12-30T17:25:13Z")
Damn straight. Why aren’t there any black people in “Beowulf,” anyway? And why doesn’t Spike Lee make movies about white people? Buncha damn racists… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/5 "2003-12-30T17:32:47Z")
I wouldn’t waste time on thius lunatic’s ravings. > [@](#): > > In fact all Europe’s mathematics, reading and writing and technological advancements in transportation and warfare are all based on African and Asian concepts. The reason that Western medicine has not advanced to the enlightened technological level as Chinese herbal medicine and why most Western technology is diametrically opposed to all life on this planet, poisoning our air and water and causing widespread disease and death is for the simple fact that the Freemasons and the Church have not yet let go of the death grip they have on each other’s throats. The dude’s cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/6 "2003-12-30T17:40:58Z")
Hm. Now that I read the actual rant cited, not only is he plainly kind of nuts, but nearly everyone who’s responded to him on his own page is gleefully excoriating him… ---
**Author:** ![mic84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@mic84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mic84)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/7 "2003-12-30T18:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Master Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Hm. Now that I read the actual rant cited, not only is he plainly kind of nuts, but nearly everyone who’s responded to him on his own page is gleefully excoriating him… \*\* Not to say he isn’t nuts, but given that he’s been linked to from [FOXNews](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106818,00.html), this isn’t quite as impressive as it seems.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/8 "2003-12-30T19:02:12Z")
> [@](#): > > The reason that Western medicine has not advanced to the enlightened technological level as Chinese herbal medicine… Right. Sure. I sopped reading at that. ---
**Author:** ![Antiquarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Antiquarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antiquarian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/9 "2003-12-30T19:08:25Z")
So did I **Skip** this guys rantings are Pure Rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/10 "2003-12-30T19:09:49Z")
Wow, amazing, just amazing. People like this Mr. Hart show why we need to add more chlorine in the good ol’ gene pool! ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/11 "2003-12-30T19:32:27Z")
I read about this yesterday and my eyes rolled out of the back of my head. People really have nothing better to do. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/12 "2003-12-30T19:45:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Master Wang-Ka \* > \*\* > And why doesn’t Spike Lee make movies about white people? > > \*\* Um, bad example. “Do the Right Thing”, “Jungle Fever”, and “Son of Sam,” just to pick a few, had prominent white characters. But at least this guy acknowledges that it probably wasn’t the intent of PJ to make a movie where white=good, black=bad. So it’s not quite as bad as those who were saying that Lucas was depicting white Californian fear of a Latino takeover by casting a Maori actor to play Jango Fett, the template for the stormtroopers. Nor is it up to the level of Hooper from “Chasing Amy.” ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/13 "2003-12-30T21:59:28Z")
Oh ICK. To think that these people are running around without supervision. And driving. And VOTING, more than likely. I weep. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/14 "2003-12-30T22:15:27Z")
You know, it occurs to me more and more frequently that humanity in general is suffering from a whopping case of terminal stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/15 "2003-12-31T00:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cerri \* > **You know, it occurs to me more and more frequently that humanity in general is suffering from a whopping case of terminal stupidity.** Nah, people in general have always been pretty stupid. It’s just the new globally wired communications technologies that gives them a platform such that their rantings can get notice beyond a xeroxed flyer pinned to the corkboard at the local laundromat. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/16 "2003-12-31T01:00:16Z")
It’s true that, in the novel, some of the Southrons (the Variags, I think) were described as black men, and I must say, in terms that are generally not acceptable today. IIRC the Southron soldier upon whose body Sam and Frodo came in TTT was described as a classically African type black man, and the impression given was along the lines of a noble savage. In a few other places, unflattering descriptions were made of the Variags; such descriptions probably were acceptable in the time and place where Tolkien wrote this, but not now. I can’t see anything in the movies, though, to arouse the ire of the author quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/17 "2003-12-31T01:03:33Z")
Oh yeah, also in the scenes around Bree Barliman Butterbur makes ample references to the “black men”, but means only the black riders who _dressed_ in black and rode black horses. Again, however, this is in the novel. I don’t think it was put that way in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/18 "2003-12-31T01:20:57Z")
You know, I’ll bet if they had included other ethnicities in the movie this nutbag would have been screaming that they were nothing more than tokens. Gah… ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/19 "2003-12-31T01:23:03Z")
There is a great speech Faramir gives in ROTK- taken directly from Tolkien’s book- where he looks on a dead Haradrim (ya know, those arab dudes wearing eyeliner riding on mastodons) and says how the furriners ain’t evil, somebody’s mom is crying, pity all those swept up by evil and sent to war, blah blah, etc. P. Jackson cites it directly in the DVD commentary to rebut those who say it’s pro-war or racist. I’m kinda stunned this guy is trawling up the old “Tolkien the Racist” chestnut again like some profound revelation. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787/20 "2003-12-31T01:57:40Z")
Ah, the nutcakes will grab hold of anything that’s hot with the public to push their looney agenda, **'possum stalker**. They go looking for “evidence” (anything they can twist to fit their worldview) and torture the facts till they more or less fit the grand scheme being flogged. Then they announce to a stunned world: “See? I was right! Thus and so IS so and thus!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-pj-keeping-the-brothers-down/221787.md?page=2)