# Tolkien question: What if the One Ring had been destroyed at the end of the Second Age? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201 "2009-08-21T14:52:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/21 "2009-08-23T17:43:07Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > No, the greater evil was Morgoth who had already been dealt with. But perhaps remains to be dealt with. “[Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, **when Melkor returns**.](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Final_Battle)” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/22 "2009-08-23T18:02:20Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > No, the greater evil was Morgoth who had already been dealt with. There was definitely reason to believe that he wasn’t “done with” so much as in exile. Sauron, throughout the Second Age, was marshalling his powers in order to return Morgoth to Arda. The temple he had built in Numenor was a temple to Morgoth and the sacrifices that were made there were dedicated to him. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/23 "2009-08-23T18:36:44Z")
The problem is that, although Morgoth is banished, his influence remains. Sauron is the most obvious example of his remaining influence, but really, it’s the more subtle influences that are more dangerous in the long run. All evil ultimately stems from Morgoth, but so thoroughly intertwined with the good in the world that it’s impossible to disentangle them, and so banishing Morgoth wasn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/24 "2009-08-23T18:46:01Z")
I know better to quibble with Tolkien geeks, but my reply was to the guy speculating another “badass” was to pop up (and was brief, no implication intended Evil was done with, etc). In the context of finalised published materials, Silmarillion, Return of the King, if we are in the scenario that the One Ring is destroyed after Sauron’s first defeat, we’re in the same scenario as at end of Return of the King. I daresay there was no hint of an immediate “badass” return. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/25 "2009-08-23T18:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky. Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. So says JRRT at the end of Quenta Silmarillion. Dark fruit unto the latest days… I’d expect that with the fading of the firstborn, it is the race of men which would be upholding the will of Morgoth in times to come. If the ring had been destroyed by Isildur, doubtless some chieftain from Rhun, or Umbar would eventually have risen on the backs of slave labor and misery to try to exert his will over others. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/26 "2009-08-23T23:23:34Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > So says JRRT at the end of Quenta Silmarillion. Dark fruit unto the latest days… > > I’d expect that with the fading of the firstborn, it is the race of men which would be upholding the will of Morgoth in times to come. If the ring had been destroyed by Isildur, doubtless some chieftain from Rhun, or Umbar would eventually have risen on the backs of slave labor and misery to try to exert his will over others. I think this captures my line of thinking. Each passing age is a lessening of power (a classical narrative), ergo the next as QtM writes will be men of evil. Not Morgoth as the “badass” ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/27 "2009-08-24T02:10:10Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > As it happens, I do fault Isildur for failing to destroy the One Ring. Elrond warned him to cast it into the flames of Mount Doom, but he didn’t, leading to terrible suffering, death and devastation when Sauron rose again. > > Had the Ring been destroyed then, Isildur would probably still have been killed at the Battle of the Gladden Fields… Assuming he made it as far as the Gladden Fields – I have this recurring mental image of Isildur and Elrond heading into Mount Doom, and only Elrond coming out, and saying: “Oops”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/28 "2009-08-24T16:36:00Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Assuming he made it as far as the Gladden Fields – I have this recurring mental image of Isildur and Elrond heading into Mount Doom, and only Elrond coming out, and saying: “Oops”. 😛 Would things have been better? Many lives would have been saved by that act, at least in the War of the Ring. Yet most of us, and I suspect Professor Tolkien, would consider it an inherently evil deed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/29 "2009-08-24T16:48:39Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > Hobbits would still be, for the most part, unknown. Bilbo would have stayed in his hobbit-hole and Frodo would have been your generic, or maybe slightly Tookish, angsty tween. Frodo was 50 when he left the Shire for Rivendell. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/30 "2009-08-24T17:04:57Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Would things have been better? Many lives would have been saved by that act, at least in the War of the Ring. Yet most of us, and I suspect Professor Tolkien, would consider it an inherently evil deed. But in the world of LotR, the powers that be can manipulate even bad acts to good ends (Frodo failing to destroy the ring + Gollum stealing it back = ring destroyed). Doesn’t make the evil acts less evil, though. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/31 "2009-08-24T17:26:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > As it happens, I do fault Isildur for failing to destroy the One Ring. Elrond warned him to cast it into the flames of Mount Doom, but he didn’t, leading to terrible suffering, death and devastation when Sauron rose again. Wait a minute. Now, I admit I don’t have the text in front of me, but as I recall, nobody understood the Ring’s power. One reason the Ring was so dangerous was that of all the wise, onyl gandalf and Saruman really understood that the Ring wasn’t just a potent magical tool, but part of Sauron’s very being. IIRC, Isildur might have been warned in vague terms that maybe the Ring wasn’t particuarly safe, but nobody really thought about it. Nobody knew how dangerous it was. In fact, it wasn’t until much later that they even knew Sauron survived his fall. I think you might be conflating the movie and the book. I’ve done it myself a few times, even forgetting that in the books, Sauron was up and walking about (and probably had been for some time), and personally tortured Gollum. In any case, I can’t find Tolkein’s letters, either, but I recall him saying that nobody on the earth could have willingly tossed the Ring away, not in the very heart of its power. Possibly this would not have been true right after Sauron’s defeat, but I wouldn’t wager it. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/32 "2009-08-24T17:42:47Z")
The elves knew. They knew when the One Ring was created that it controlled the other rings. Sauron personally tortured Gollum? Where does it say that? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/33 "2009-08-24T19:42:54Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > The elves knew. They knew when the One Ring was created that it controlled the other rings. They knew one thing you coudl do with it. That’s a far cry from what they learned later. > [@](#): > > Sauron personally tortured Gollum? Where does it say that? “Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering.” He had seen Sauron personally and evidently faced Sauron’s personal attention. of course, the torment may not have been physical… ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/34 "2009-08-24T22:41:05Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Would things have been better? Many lives would have been saved by that act, at least in the War of the Ring. Yet most of us, and I suspect Professor Tolkien, would consider it an inherently evil deed. Oh, I’m certain the Professor would have considered it an evil act – it was really just an amusing notion & mental scene I could see playing out between Isildur and Elrond. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/35 "2009-08-25T01:56:06Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Wait a minute. > > Now, I admit I don’t have the text in front of me, but as I recall, nobody understood the Ring’s power… Well… take a look at FOTR “The Council of Elrond.” Both Elrond and Cirdan urged Isildur to destroy the Ring, but he wouldn’t. If you’re going to ignore two of the wisest Elves and insist on taking a _weregild_ from the Dark Lord who was just wearing it, you get what’s comin’ to ya. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/36 "2009-08-25T02:43:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Well… take a look at FOTR “The Council of Elrond.” Both Elrond and Cirdan urged Isildur to destroy the Ring, but he wouldn’t. If you’re going to ignore two of the wisest Elves and insist on taking a _weregild_ from the Dark Lord who was just wearing it, you get what’s comin’ to ya. Do they actually explain anything? I recall them being rather vague and none too useful. Wasn’t their advice based on a vague foreboding? ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/37 "2009-08-25T05:10:44Z")
Isildur gets it up to the Cracks of Doom, looks at the fire, looks at the Ring, starts to think, “Eh, such an innocent thing. So pretty, in the firelight. Such rare beauty, rare and precious…” Still, he has enough strength of will to… flick it halfheartedly in the general direction of the flames. It not being the Time for such events, he misses, but doesn’t notice it, his mind being clouded. With the Ring not really destroyed, major earthquakes and erruptions fail to happen, paradoxically indicating that the bauble was nothing much. Isildur comes back and announces that he’s done the deed. No one thinks to wonder if that’s really so. The Ring gets picked up by a rat who looses it to a bat who by further chance takes it out of Mordor. From what I understand, though, there wasn’t much of this that was really chance. I think it might have all played out much the same anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/38 "2009-08-25T12:41:52Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > They knew one thing you coudl do with it. That’s a far cry from what they learned later. > > “Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering.” > > He had seen Sauron personally and evidently faced Sauron’s personal attention. of course, the torment may not have been physical… You’re right; I had forgotten that line. That would certain imply that Gollum had seen Sauron, and had not found the experience pleasant. I think the Elves were pretty much aware of what the Ring was. But it may be that they were reluctant to share their knowledge with Men. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201/39 "2009-08-25T13:52:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > “Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering.” > > He had seen Sauron personally and evidently faced Sauron’s personal attention. of course, the torment may not have been physical… Didn’t Gandalf torture Gollum too? Something about putting the fear of fire in him? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-question-what-if-the-one-ring-had-been-destroyed-at-the-end-of-the-second-age/507201.md?page=1)