# Tolkien scholar: JRRT avoided words with French or Latin origins **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112 "2011-07-07T00:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/21 "2011-07-07T08:32:42Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > This makes sense…and explains why I never could read my Frech copy of **The Hobbit**. Reading it in French felt “wrong” to me, but reading LOTR in Swedish feels “right”. Reading it in Finnish doesn’t provoke such strong feelings either way. Oddly enough, it also works perfectly in Hebrew - I sometimes prefer it to the original English. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/22 "2011-07-07T08:36:55Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > why peg latin to the norman conquest? england used to be a roman province. doesn’t the british crown have some sort of a confirmation of roman ancestry? i understood the eldar language (in araman) to be JRRT’s latin equivalent. After the Romans left, there weren’t many pockets of people speaking Latin. Outside of the churches, who still spoke Latin, the English language was thoroughly Germanic, thanks to the Anglo-Saxon occupation - we barely have any Celtic left either, apart from a few words for geographical features. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/23 "2011-07-07T11:08:23Z")
some roman latin made it to the english melting pot, according to one history book. all the \_\_caster, \_\_\_cester, and \_\_\_chester place names are derive from the latin “castra” meaning ‘camp.’ many cities and towns are orignally roman encampments. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/24 "2011-07-07T11:29:45Z")
> [@Doug\_Bowe](#): > > JRRT was a language scholar **(and even did work for “Q” in the OED).** > This is just a WAG, but since the Shire existed in a time far off (before 1066, say) might he be enough of a purist (or a nitpicker) to keep even the language reflective to the period? He didn’t work directly for M? I wonder if he had a 00 designation. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/25 "2011-07-07T11:48:26Z")
any Koine Greek influences? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/26 "2011-07-07T12:18:21Z")
I personally also avoid words with French or Latin origins when writing stories since those words don’t have the same intense ring that Germanic words do. When there’s a choice between words, the Germanic word will usually sound the less bureaucratic and more fantastic of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/27 "2011-07-07T12:19:08Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > He also understood finnish, welsh, old irish, hebrew, old high german, old norse, and old Mercian. Tolkien once said he’d like to speak old Mercian all the time. Most Rohirian (not Rohirric) words were actually old Mercian. Although I seem to recall from his letters that he didn’t speak Modern Irish–although he liked Ireland. Didn’t he learn a bit of Spanish as a gesture to the Spanish priests who were his friends in childhood? A Latin scholar would have found it rather easy. If so, why the heck didn’t he remember that _minas_ means “mines” in Spanish (& Portuguese). It’s a tiny discordant note when reading about Minas Tirith, etc. Anyway, here’s a [pierce on Dwarves versus Dwarfs](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000293.html); winding & discursive, as so many linguistic discussions tend to be. And it quotes JRRT Himself: > [@](#): > > It may be observed that in this book as in _The Hobbit_ the form _dwarves_ is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs. It should be _dwarrows_ (or _dwerrows_), if singular and plural had each gone its own way down the years, as have _man_ and _men_, or _goose_ and _geese_. But we no longer speak of a dwarf as often as we do of a man, or even of a goose, and memories have not been fresh enough among Men to keep hold of a special plural for a race now abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of truth is preserved, or at last to nonsense-stories in which they have become mere figures of fun. But in the Third Age something of their old character and power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed: these are the descendants of the Naugrim of the Elder Days, in whose hearts still burns the ancient fire of Aule the Smith, and the embers smoulder of their long grudge against the Elves; in in whose hands still lives the skill in works of stone that none have surpassed. > > It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form _dwarves_, and so remove them a little, perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days. _Dwarrows_ would have been better; but I have used that form only in the name _Dwarrowdelf_, to represent the name of Moria in the Common Speech: _Phurunargian\__ For that meant ‘Dwarf-delving’, and yet was already a word of antique form. But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love… (Yes, I’m wandering from the OP; but I’ll keep it in mind next time I read LOTR again.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/28 "2011-07-07T12:39:33Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But I’d never heard of someone trying to speak or write in English while purging it of as much of its French or Latin words as possible. He’s not even the only well-known\*[fantasy author](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding)\* to do it. (and see the Anglish link from that page) ETA: and I see I was beaten to this… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/29 "2011-07-07T12:48:00Z")
[The Anglish Moot](http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Headside) - an Anglish Wiki of sorts ---
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/30 "2011-07-07T12:55:58Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > He didn’t work directly for M? I wonder if he had a 00 designation. You’re getting your Tolkien references mixed up. It was Christopher Lee who worked for M. [wanders off humming _Secret Agent Saruman_] ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/31 "2011-07-07T13:10:45Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > He didn’t work directly for M? I wonder if he had a 00 designation. M was published in 1908, when Tolkien was still a teenager – doubtless a precocious one, but still going to high school. W was published in 1928. (Yes, I know it was a joke.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/32 "2011-07-07T13:16:28Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > He didn’t work directly for M? I wonder if he had a 00 designation. Oddly enough, in Ken Follett’s WWII spy thriller _Eye of the Needle_, there’s a smart, multilingual Oxford don who acts as a consultant to MI6, and the character has a strong JRRT vibe. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/33 "2011-07-07T13:19:29Z")
Place names often outlive the languages they derive from. Almost the only Celtic influences that remain in English are place names, and the same holds true from the times of the Roman occupation, as Double Foolscap observes. However, many Latin words crept into the language not indirectly from Norman French (which was already considerably Germanicized because the Normans themselves were originally Vikings) but the clerical route in the Middle Ages - from the time of the Conquest to the Reformation, and even after. Latin was the language of scholars throughout Europe, and since scholars mostly did the writing, they had an impact on the language. I’ve never noticed a lack of Romance-language-derived words in LoTR, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. From what I’ve read, most English schoolchildren grew up with the story of the Conquest as just that: a conquest. [Harold Godwinson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Godwinson), last Anglo-Saxon king of England and the dead loser of the battle of Hastings, is viewed as the fallen hero. The fact that Harold’s ancestors were every bit the conquerors of the Celts, who in turn had almost certain conquered the previous inhabitants, was not noted. I suspect this is due to the historic emnity, almost feuding, of Britain and France. This is an interesting idea, one that I will have to bear in mind the next time I read LotR. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/34 "2011-07-07T13:53:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > [The Anglish Moot](http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Headside) - an Anglish Wiki of sorts That’s fascinating, I’d never heard of this before. It does in parts read like an exaggeration of Tolkien’s style. This page, on the [Banded Folkdoms of Americksland](http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Banded_Folkdoms_of_Americksland) is my favourite so far. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/35 "2011-07-07T14:02:05Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > … but reading LOTR in Swedish feels “right”. The Ohlmarks translation is generally considered quite horrible. I once compared parts of it with the English original and I cannot but agree. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/36 "2011-07-07T14:19:21Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > From what I’ve read, most English schoolchildren grew up with the story of the Conquest as just that: a conquest. [Harold Godwinson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Godwinson), last Anglo-Saxon king of England and the dead loser of the battle of Hastings, is viewed as the fallen hero. The fact that Harold’s ancestors were every bit the conquerors of the Celts, who in turn had almost certain conquered the previous inhabitants, was not noted. I suspect this is due to the historic emnity, almost feuding, of Britain and France. > . It occurs to me that in English folklore the \*defenders \*of England are always the heroes, even if ultimately unsuccessful–which means that their antagonists are the heroes the next time around. Boudicca is the heroine defending the British against the Romans, then Arthur defending the Romano-British against the Saxons, Alfred against the Danes, and then Harold and Robin Hood against the Normans. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/37 "2011-07-07T15:16:23Z")
And the Duke of Wellington against Napoleon, and Churchill against Hitler! ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/38 "2011-07-07T15:37:23Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Any other inveterate JRRT readers notice this? I went back and scanned a few pages of SIL and LOTR, and I must admit I didn’t find a lot of english words which I considered to be derived from the Romance language family. But I’m hardly a language scholar. I’m late to the party, but I completely believe the assertion that Tolkien left all the Romance language out. He was so much more interested in the languages derived from Northern Europe, and he was that finicky for sure. I could make a decent stab at it with my patchy knowledge; it would have been simple for him. I think it really enhances the text, even if it’s not on a conscious level for most people. The language doesn’t just sound generically archaic, it sounds like the coherent language of a culture–while modern English sounds like the hodge-podge that it is. > [@](#): > > Another related question: How odd was it for JRRT to still be upset with the French over the Norman Conquest? It had happened over 8 centuries before his birth, after all. 😉 I can totally see that too, oh yes. Meanwhile, Kipling was always asserting that the Norman culture was a necessary balance to the Anglo-Saxon one, and that only the blend of peoples could have produced the English. Maybe we could set up a cage match… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/39 "2011-07-07T16:17:35Z")
Two languages enter! One language leaves! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/40 "2011-07-07T16:38:40Z")
Quoth **Ludovic** : > [@](#): > > When there’s a choice between words, the Germanic word will usually sound the less bureaucratic and more fantastic of the two. I wonder how much of that is due to Tolkien’s own influence. To most modern fantasy fans, “sounds fantastical” largely means “sounds like Tolkien”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=3)