# Tolkien scholar: JRRT avoided words with French or Latin origins **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112 "2011-07-07T00:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/41 "2011-07-07T16:48:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And the Duke of Wellington against Napoleon, and Churchill against Hitler! And Monty v. Patton. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/42 "2011-07-07T16:49:12Z")
Ah, yes. “Oversexed, overpaid and over here” vs. “Undersexed, underpaid and under Eisenhower.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/43 "2011-07-07T16:53:14Z")
I definitely noticed it. The work has a sort of timeless (meaning back in time somewhere) feel to it because of the language. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/44 "2011-07-07T16:58:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oddly enough, it also works perfectly in Hebrew - I sometimes prefer it to the original English. You haven’t really read Tolkien until you’ve read it in the original Klingon. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/45 "2011-07-07T17:18:05Z")
I don’t know much about Tolkien and his motivations, but I do know that he had a great interest in the sound and feel of writing (just from reading the appendix to LOTR about his word choices in his putative translation). So it’s quite plausible that if there’s a lower frequency of Romance words in LOTR, it’s just because he (perhaps without even noticing the bias in his word choices) felt the Germanic words sounded more mythic-- more fundamental, solemn, and unadorned. You don’t need to bring in political considerations about long ago conquests, when easier explanations are at hand. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/46 "2011-07-07T17:29:03Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But I’d never heard of someone trying to speak or write in English while purging it of as much of its French or Latin words as possible. I **tried** it once for a Staff **Report** on Viking horned **helmets**. Er, I gave it a shot once for a Staff Rundown on Viking horned hard hats. Before **abandoning** the **project** as a lost **cause** , I must have **wasted** **very** many **hours** **try** ing to **eliminate** every **non-native** word. Er, Before giving up the bid as a worthless struggle, I must have lost truly much time giving it a shot to get rid of every un-homegrown word. **Just** like I’m doing now. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/47 "2011-07-07T17:29:07Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > You don’t need to bring in political considerations about long ago conquests, when easier explanations are at hand. You don’t have to invoke a subconscious choice. Tolkien had a conscious (and well known and documented) preference for northern European languages. His own interests included the Norse eddas and Old English works (stuff like Beowulf), even if he was familiar/fluent with Greek and the Romance languages. Beyond that, he was a professionally a philologist (mainly of Old Germanic languages) and familiar with at least a dozen langauges. It would be surprising if he let subconscious choice dictate his language choice. It seems like he stuck with familiarity and what he did professionally. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/48 "2011-07-07T17:32:19Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I personally also avoid words with French or Latin origins when writing stories since those words don’t have the same intense ring that Germanic words do. When there’s a choice between words, the Germanic word will usually sound the less bureaucratic and more fantastic of the two. This is reminding me of a passage in Heinlein’s _Double Star,_ in which the protagonist is an actor hired to be a “double” for John Joseph Bonforte, an incapacitated statesman. He is handed a speech to read, and realizes it doesn’t sound at all like Bonforte, so he rewrites it… among other things, taking out all the Latin-derived words and replacing them with Germanic-derived ones. Heinlein may have mentioned in passing that Churchill also avoided Latin-derived words in his speeches. So I don’t think this is unusual at all, if you’re trying for a certain effect. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/49 "2011-07-07T17:33:56Z")
Tolkien was a prof alongside C. S. Lewis and Joseph Lewis. They were good friends. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for some of their bull sessions. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/50 "2011-07-07T17:38:23Z")
> [@wei\_ji](#): > > Does your source book say anything about an underlying musical structure in Tolkien, such as three “movements” to parts of the story… Just wanted to mention that _The Lord of the Rings_ is actually divided into six books – _The Ring Sets Out, The Ring Goes South, The Treason of Isengard, The Ring Goes East, The War of the Ring,_ and _The End of the Third Age_. It was the publisher’s decision to print it in three volumes (two books per volume), and IIRC, Tolkien was not pleased with that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/51 "2011-07-07T17:44:22Z")
Re-read the Chapter The Council of Elrond and look closely at each character’s dialogue. Tolkien gives each a unique style to fit their culture and era. Every word was carefully chosen. Also see the dialogue for Saruman in The Voice of Saruman. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/52 "2011-07-07T18:04:37Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But I’d never heard of someone trying to speak or write in English while purging it of as much of its French or Latin words as possible. I thought I remembered that at least one of Frederick Buechner’s novels, [Godric](http://www.amazon.com/Godric-Novel-Frederick-Buechner/dp/0060611626) or [Brendan](http://www.amazon.com/Brendan-Novel-Frederick-Buechner/dp/0060611782), was written that way; but I can’t find a cite that says that specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/53 "2011-07-07T18:21:47Z")
The first sentence of The Fellowship of the Rings: “When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.” Words with French or Latin derivation in the first sentence: announced, celebrating, party, special, magnificence, excitement. So, he didn’t avoid them completely. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/54 "2011-07-07T18:24:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Words with French or Latin derivation in the first sentence: > > announced, celebrating, party, special, magnificence, excitement. Also “Mr” (ultimately from Latin “magister”). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/55 "2011-07-07T18:28:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The first sentence of The Fellowship of the Rings: > > “When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.” > > Words with French or Latin derivation in the first sentence: > > announced, celebrating, party, special, magnificence, excitement. > > So, he didn’t avoid them completely. Heretic! Heretic! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/56 "2011-07-07T18:45:00Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Heretic! Heretic! From the Latin “haereticus”, “member of a sect”, from Greek, “hairetikos”, “able to choose”. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/57 "2011-07-07T19:15:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So, he didn’t avoid them completely. No, but that wasn’t the original claim, either. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/58 "2011-07-07T19:36:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Words with French or Latin derivation in the first sentence: > announced, celebrating, party, special, magnificence, excitement. Couldn’t have Celeborn without celebrating now, could we? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/59 "2011-07-07T19:41:24Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I personally also avoid words with French or Latin origins when writing stories since those words don’t have the same intense ring that Germanic words do. When there’s a choice between words, the Germanic word will usually sound the less bureaucratic and more fantastic of the two. You could be quoting [George Orwell](http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm) [QUOTE=George Orwell] _Pretentious diction_. Words like _phenomenon, element, individual_ (as noun), _objective, categorical, effective, virtual, basic, primary, promote, constitute, exhibit, exploit, utilize, eliminate, liquidate_, are used to dress up a simple statement and give an air of scientific impartiality to biased judgements. Adjectives like\* epoch-making, epic, historic, unforgettable, triumphant, age-old, inevitable, inexorable, veritable\*, are used to dignify the sordid process of international politics, while writing that aims at glorifying war usually takes on an archaic color, its characteristic words being: _realm, throne, chariot, mailed fist, trident, sword, shield, buckler, banner, jackboot, clarion_. Foreign words and expressions such as _cul de sac, ancien regime, deus ex machina, mutatis mutandis, status quo, gleichschaltung, weltanschauung_, are used to give an air of culture and elegance. Except for the useful abbreviations\* i.e., e.g.\*, and _etc._, there is no real need for any of the hundreds of foreign phrases now current in the English language. Bad writers, and especially scientific, political, and sociological writers, are nearly always haunted by the notion that Latin or Greek words are grander than Saxon ones, and unnecessary words like _expedite, ameliorate, predict, extraneous, deracinated, clandestine, subaqueous_, and hundreds of others constantly gain ground from their Anglo-Saxon numbers. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/60 "2011-07-07T19:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Couldn’t have Celeborn without celebrating now, could we? I think that joke works better with the older form of his name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=4)