# Tolkien scholar: JRRT avoided words with French or Latin origins **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112 "2011-07-07T00:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bramma23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@bramma23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bramma23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/61 "2011-07-07T19:47:35Z")
I did one of my theses on Tolkien. I haven’t read the entire thread so forgive if this was mentioned, but what OP said makes perfect sense. Almost all of Tolkien’s inspiration are Scandinavian and British. As a specialist in myths and languages, he focused on things like the Kalevala and texts in Old and Middle English. He was after all the translator of Sir Gawain and the Green Night. ---
**Author:** ![Damfino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Damfino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damfino)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/62 "2011-07-07T19:55:06Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > This is reminding me of a passage in Heinlein’s _Double Star,_ in which the protagonist is an actor hired to be a “double” for John Joseph Bonforte, an incapacitated statesman. He is handed a speech to read, and realizes it doesn’t sound at all like Bonforte, so he rewrites it… among other things, taking out all the Latin-derived words and replacing them with Germanic-derived ones. Heinlein may have mentioned in passing that Churchill also avoided Latin-derived words in his speeches. So I don’t think this is unusual at all, if you’re trying for a certain effect. Taking out all the “intestinal” Latin words and replacing them with “gutty” German words. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/63 "2011-07-07T20:24:54Z")
I randomly picked a passage from _LoTR_: the first part of Chapter IV of Book Three, “Treebeard”: > [@](#): > > Meanwhile the hobbits went with as much speed as the dark and tangled forest allowed, following the line of the running stream, westward and up towards the slopes of the mountains, deeper and deeper into Fangorn. Slowly their fear of the orcs died away, and their pace slackened. A queer stifling feeling came over them, as if the air were too thin or too scanty for breathing. > At last Merry halted. “We can’t go on like this,” he panted. “I want some air.” > “Let’s have a drink at any rate,” said Pippin. Counting each contraction or compound as 2 words, that’s 100 words (total, not 100 unique words). That should be enough for a demonstrative sample. What’s truly remarkable is just how absolutely dominating Old English words are in this sample. No language is the source of even 10% of Tolkein’s vocabulary: Language Percentage Old English 77% Old Norse 6% Old French 5% Coined 4% Latin 3% Old High German 2% Greek 2% “Scandinavian” 1% I leave it as an exercise for others to find comparable statistic for the origin of words in contemporary English usage. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/64 "2011-07-07T20:46:49Z")
Cant say that I’m surprised that a guy showing such admiration for blue-eyed blonde ubermenschen would try to uproot non-Nordicist sounding words from his personal vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/65 "2011-07-07T21:02:54Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Cant say that I’m surprised that a guy showing such admiration for blue-eyed blonde ubermenschen would try to uproot non-Nordicist sounding words from his personal vocabulary. What are you talking about? Tolkien loathed the Nazis. He even disapproved of the ultranationalistic spin that Wagner put on their shared source material. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/66 "2011-07-07T21:07:30Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What are you talking about? Tolkien loathed the Nazis. He even disapproved of the ultranationalistic spin that Wagner put on their shared source material. IMO that’s only because it was done by the Germans. I have always hated Elves and was not about to let a thread pass without kicking the Master in the legs for releasing them into the world. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/67 "2011-07-07T21:08:46Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What are you talking about? Tolkien loathed the Nazis. He even disapproved of the ultranationalistic spin that Wagner put on their shared source material. Indeed. When a German publisher wrote him asking if he was “Aryan,” (between the wars) Tolkien’s first draft of a response was: “I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by ‘arisch’. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. … But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. … I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.” ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/68 "2011-07-07T21:09:37Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > IMO that’s only because it was done by the Germans. He was also against apartheid in South Africa FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/69 "2011-07-07T21:45:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I personally also avoid words with French or Latin origins when writing stories since those words don’t have the same intense ring that Germanic words do. When there’s a choice between words, the Germanic word will usually sound the less bureaucratic and more fantastic of the two. I forget who it was pointed out that in the most famous passage from Churchill’s most famous speech, the only word derived from French is the last one: We shall fight on the beaches, We shall fight on the landing grounds, We shall fight in the fields and in the streets, We shall fight in the hills; We shall never surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/70 "2011-07-07T22:01:57Z")
I think I’ve just stumbled across a zombie thread from 2003. What’s next? Freedom fries? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/71 "2011-07-07T22:13:00Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I think I’ve just stumbled across a zombie thread from 2003. What’s next? Freedom fries? Puzzled. What happened in 2003? ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/72 "2011-07-07T22:25:46Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What are you talking about? Tolkien loathed the Nazis. He even disapproved of the ultranationalistic spin that Wagner put on their shared source material. As far as I can tell, the point he’s trying to make is that, in Tolkien, the “higher” and more “noble” peoples seem to have attributes associated with the “Aryan” stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/73 "2011-07-07T22:29:38Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > As far as I can tell, the point he’s trying to make is that, in Tolkien, the “higher” and more “noble” peoples seem to have attributes associated with the “Aryan” stereotype. Exactly my point. I like Tolkien, but the Nordicist bent or essentialism of the various cultures in his work strike me as XIX th century Nordic racism. To learn that he consciously decided to “cleanse” his language (or at least his use of it) of any non Nordic element is just one rock added to the moutain. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/74 "2011-07-07T22:37:08Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Indeed. When a German publisher wrote him asking if he was “Aryan,” (between the wars) Tolkien’s first draft of a response was: > > “I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by ‘arisch’. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. … But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. … I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.” Coupled with this is usually this from a letter to Christopher: > [@](#): > > “I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler … Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.” I personally don’t know what he saw in the Nibelungs and Sigfried that was so “noble,” and the Icelandic stuff is cool for being everyday bloody and anti-noble. Why is the dragon/dwarf/treasure stuff “noble?” Cool, yes, but noble? The singing the world into existence is similar to the Finnish Kalavala and could be seen as noble, but it doesn’t seem he was referring to that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/75 "2011-07-07T22:39:13Z")
Quoth **paperbackwriter** : > [@](#): > > … > Coined 4% > … The words in that passage which might be considered “coined” are “hobbits”, “Fangorn”, “orcs”, “Merry”, and “Pippin”. Obviously you’re finding a “real language” origin for one of those, but I’m not sure which: I’m pretty sure all of those (except maybe “Fangorn”) have at least some ties to real languages. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/76 "2011-07-07T23:18:50Z")
“Merry” and “Pippin” are obviously normal modern English terms, but I counted their usage as proper names as being coinages of Tolkien. “Fangorn” and “hobbit” are terms entirely created by Tolkien, [but orc is from an old Latin word](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orc): > [@](#): > > “ogre, devouring monster,” O.E. orcþyrs, orcneas (pl.), perhaps from a Romanic source akin to ogre, **and ult. from L. Orcus “Hell,”** a word of unknown origin. Revived by J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973) as the name of a brutal race in Middle Earth. (emphasis added) There was an Old English intermediate term, but unlike the other O.E. words, there was a predecessor term in another language. Almost all the predecessors for the other O.E. words were proto-Germanic or proto-Indo-European. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/77 "2011-07-07T23:34:44Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Exactly my point. > I like Tolkien, but the Nordicist bent or essentialism of the various cultures in his work strike me as XIX th century Nordic racism. To learn that he consciously decided to “cleanse” his language (or at least his use of it) of any non Nordic element is just one rock added to the moutain. From what I see, Tolkein was simply in love with his chosen subject - the ancient mythology and languages of the anglo-saxons, germans, etc. - and chose to see this as adding a truly valuable contribution to European history. I have never seen him deny the “nobility” of other cultures, or insist that they did _not_ make a contribution to history. I don’t see anything “racist” about that, other than guilt by association - the real racists, the Nazis, also were obsessed with similar matters (something Tolkien himself absolutely hated, as the above quote notes). Modifying the vocabulary in his work is simply a matter of fictional world-building, not racism. As someone obsessed with language, such details no doubt amused him and added a level of meaning for him. ---
**Author:** ![Premislaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f0a364/32.png) [@Premislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Premislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/78 "2011-07-07T23:42:06Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Cant say that I’m surprised that a guy showing such admiration for blue-eyed blonde ubermenschen would try to uproot non-Nordicist sounding words from his personal vocabulary. You need to brush up your Tolkein lore. Elves are murderous overambitious kin-slaying assholes who are only humbled after a series of disasters. Numenor was an imperialistic power that ended worshiping the Big Bad and was destroyed because of the hubris of it’s leaders. The main heroes of the story are short and as unmartial as it gets. Quite opposite the Nordic ubermenschen actually. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/79 "2011-07-07T23:51:18Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > I forget who it was pointed out that in the most famous passage from Churchill’s most famous speech, the only word derived from French is the last one: Could have been me, as I’ve mentioned it on these boards before. But I heard it from a writing textbook I once had, so the knowledge is out there somewhere. > [@Chronos](#): > > I wonder how much of that is due to Tolkien’s own influence. To most modern fantasy fans, “sounds fantastical” largely means “sounds like Tolkien”. That’s probably partially it, in addition to the writing simply sounding like powerful speech like the above. I think that I must have idly wondered if Tolkein had done the same thing I did when writing his prose as I did know that he was a language geek, and had noticed how powerful his prose was, but had never formally looked at sample passages. It wouldn’t surprise me if a lot fewer of his words are Romance-derived than average, whether consciously or unconsciously. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/80 "2011-07-08T01:43:39Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > As far as I can tell, the point he’s trying to make is that, in Tolkien, the “higher” and more “noble” peoples seem to have attributes associated with the “Aryan” stereotype. What makes you think elves have blue eyes and blond hair? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=5)