# Tolkien scholar: JRRT avoided words with French or Latin origins **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112 "2011-07-07T00:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/81 "2011-07-08T01:55:26Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > As far as I can tell, the point he’s trying to make is that, in Tolkien, the “higher” and more “noble” peoples seem to have attributes associated with the “Aryan” stereotype. Last I checked, Sam was short, stocky, and burnt red-brown from working out in the sun. The hobbits as a whole, I believe, were described something along the lines of “brown of hair and face.” The elves were a cautionary tale for mankind, and the only other “high” or '“noble” race discussions in the tale itself were generally regarding the petty bickering of the kings of men over who was really supposed to be the king, and no-one came out of that looking like a rose. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/82 "2011-07-08T19:57:46Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > What are you talking about? Tolkien loathed the Nazis. He even disapproved of the ultranationalistic spin that Wagner put on their shared source material. And for that matter, the Normans were as Nordic as the Anglo-Saxons - they were descended from Vikings, and Germanic tribes in France. Tolkien was interested in the development of languages, so naturally he was peeved that the development of Anglo-Saxon was interrupted by an invasion of people speaking a different language - but it was clearly not a racial objection since the invaders were as “Nordic” as the invaded. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/83 "2011-07-08T20:42:20Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > but it was clearly not a racial objection since the invaders were as “Nordic” as the invaded. Yeah, but it’s not difficult to see where maybe he had an inbuilt Northern European bias, when the bad guys included “Easterlings” and “Swarthy Men”, including those darned awful Southrons with their curved blades. Of course, you also had the Dunlendings and the Woses/Druadain who helped out, but they tended to be described as either “bent” or without a certain light in their eyes. Maybe Tolkien didn’t intend to put such a heavy racial influence in his work, but it’s hard to argue there wasn’t as least some in-built prejudice in it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/84 "2011-07-08T20:48:37Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Of course, you also had the Dunlendings and the Woses/Druadain who helped out, but they tended to be described as either “bent” or without a certain light in their eyes. JRRT wrote a lot more about the druadan in writings that didn’t get published until after his death. He definitely portrayed them in a favorable light and their very name shows he considered them among the Edain, or ‘enlightened’ men. And the dunlendings were actually descendants of the House of Haleth who refused to heed the call and head to Numenor after the war of Wrath. They welcomed their distant kin from Numenor when the sea kings first returned to the shore of middle earth, but broke with them later when they began oppressing the folk of middle earth and cutting down all their beloved trees. Or so he wrote in the final volume of HOMEs. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/85 "2011-07-08T21:00:49Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > JRRT wrote a lot more about the druadan in writings that didn’t get published until after his death. He definitely portrayed them in a favorable light and their very name shows he considered them among the Edain, or ‘enlightened’ men. Actually, that makes things worse, doesn’t it? So, all the men who helped out on the good side are descended from or counted among the “enlightened” men. While there are probably some decent folk off east or south, the ones helping Sauron who weren’t turned into ghoulish freaks (like the Mouth or the Ringwraiths) were all Easterlings (described as Swarthy men) and Southrons. If you wanted to make the point that JRRT didn’t have an inbuilt bias, it would have been better if there were unenlightened men who stood with the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/86 "2011-07-08T21:29:56Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Actually, that makes things worse, doesn’t it? > > So, all the men who helped out on the good side are descended from or counted among the “enlightened” men. > > While there are probably some decent folk off east or south, the ones helping Sauron who weren’t turned into ghoulish freaks (like the Mouth or the Ringwraiths) were all Easterlings (described as Swarthy men) and Southrons. > > If you wanted to make the point that JRRT didn’t have an inbuilt bias, it would have been better if there were unenlightened men who stood with the good guys. Well, a number of the ringwraiths were corrupted men of the west, and a number of the easterlings back in the 1st age were loyal and fought and died alongside the Eldar and Edain at Nirnaeth Arnoediad. (Bor and his sons) Besides, JRRT never said he was giving a ‘fair and balanced’ account. From the start he declared that SIL was written from the perspective of the Eldar, and involved mainly the men who associated themselves with the Eldar. And LOTR was written from the hobbitish perspective, who he also described as having provincial views. The man was recreating tribal myths, and he did so very realistically. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/87 "2011-07-08T21:44:05Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Yeah, but it’s not difficult to see where maybe he had an inbuilt Northern European bias, when the bad guys included “Easterlings” and “Swarthy Men”, including those darned awful Southrons with their curved blades. > > Of course, you also had the Dunlendings and the Woses/Druadain who helped out, but they tended to be described as either “bent” or without a certain light in their eyes. > > Maybe Tolkien didn’t intend to put such a heavy racial influence in his work, but it’s hard to argue there wasn’t as least some in-built prejudice in it. I’m not as familiar with the LotR as I once was, so I can’t make any judgement about it - but I can comment on the argument that disliking the Norman conquest has anything to do with “pro-Aryan” beliefs (it doesn’t, in my opinion) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/88 "2011-07-08T23:17:27Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > What makes you think elves have blue eyes and blond hair? Indeed. The only universal among the elves seems to be that they’re tall and thin. Many of them are explicitly said to have dark hair. And, as people have pointed out, there was nothing “noble” about the elves. Many of them were nasty pieces of work. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/89 "2011-07-08T23:29:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Many of them are explicitly said to have dark hair. Including, incidentally, Luthien, universally recognized as being the most beautiful of all the Children of Illuvatar. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/90 "2011-07-09T00:11:56Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Indeed. The only universal among the elves seems to be that they’re tall and thin. Many of them are explicitly said to have dark hair. And, as people have pointed out, there was nothing “noble” about the elves. Many of them were nasty pieces of work. A bit like Pterry’s comment on elves: > [@](#): > > “Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. > Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. > Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. > Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. > Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. > Elves are terrific. They beget terror. > The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning. > No one ever said elves are nice. > Elves are bad.” Tolkien didn’t think that elves were all bad, but he never said they were nice. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/91 "2011-07-09T14:55:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > What makes you think elves have blue eyes and blond hair? Legolas was so dreamy in the movies! (Anyone who’s actually _read_ Tolkien knows there’s lots more to the elves.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/92 "2011-07-09T16:02:04Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Maybe Tolkien didn’t intend to put such a heavy racial influence in his work, but it’s hard to argue there wasn’t as least some in-built prejudice in it. The man grew up in late 19th-early 20th century Britain, so I’d be a little surprised if he didn’t have some level of prejudice against blacks and Arabs, or that that wasn’t reflected in the stereotypes in the books. But there are levels of racism, and saying that Tolkien had biases against non-Europeans is a far cry from saying he was a Nazi or sympathetic to the Nazi point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/93 "2011-07-09T16:10:42Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Tolkien didn’t think that elves were all bad, but he never said they were nice. He mostly thought that his Elves were wrong about stuff. Vanity, hubris etc. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/94 "2011-07-09T16:12:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The man grew up in late 19th-early 20th century Britain South Africa? As a child anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/95 "2011-07-09T16:57:37Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > South Africa? As a child anyway? He was born in South Africa to English parents, and moved to England when he was 3. He considered himself thoroughly English. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/96 "2011-07-09T17:08:31Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > South Africa? As a child anyway? He moved to England aged 3 (in 1895), so I doubt that South Africa influenced him a great deal. There’s no hint in the Letters or the biographies I’ve read that it did. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/97 "2011-07-09T17:10:20Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Indeed. The only universal among the elves seems to be that they’re tall and thin. Many of them are explicitly said to have dark hair. And, as people have pointed out, there was nothing “noble” about the elves. Many of them were nasty pieces of work. Tall and thin? Then how do they stand upright in that oak tree while they bake [del]cookies[/del] biscuits? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/98 "2011-07-09T17:26:22Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > He was born in South Africa to English parents, and moved to England when he was 3. He considered himself thoroughly English. Thanks. Thought he was a bit older, obviously not. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![wei\_ji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wei\_ji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wei_ji)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/99 "2011-07-09T17:38:14Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Just wanted to mention that _The Lord of the Rings_ is actually divided into six books – _The Ring Sets Out, The Ring Goes South, The Treason of Isengard, The Ring Goes East, The War of the Ring,_ and _The End of the Third Age_. It was the publisher’s decision to print it in three volumes (two books per volume), and IIRC, Tolkien was not pleased with that. Thanks for this very useful information. No point in barking up that particular tree, then. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112/100 "2011-07-10T04:16:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > …saying that Tolkien had biases against non-Europeans is a far cry from saying he was a Nazi or sympathetic to the Nazi point of view. Indeed he was not: [http://benabuya.com/2006/12/15/tolkien-and-the-nazis/](http://benabuya.com/2006/12/15/tolkien-and-the-nazis/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-scholar-jrrt-avoided-words-with-french-or-latin-origins/588112.md?page=6)