# Tolkien thread: places in the books where the narrator is full of shit **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331 "2009-03-30T16:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/21 "2009-03-30T23:24:28Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > **Elrond’s dad does not drive Venus.** Wait – you’re okay with the Earth being flat until, what, 9,000 years ago, and then being globulated by the hand of Eru, but you can’t handle the idea of Earendil being at the driver’s seat of the Venus-mobile? > [@](#): > > Scholars and lore-masters also agree that there is no such damn thing as a magic talking Troll purse. “Bilbo, you stinking liar,” they say, shaking their heads sadly. That one doesn’t bother me. Bilbo wrote _There and Back Again_ for Hobbit children, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/22 "2009-03-31T00:27:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Wait – you’re okay with the Earth being flat until, what, 9,000 years ago, and then being globulated by the hand of Eru, but you can’t handle the idea of Earendil being at the driver’s seat of the Venus-mobile? Not precisely. My personal take on the matter is a bit more oblique, and is based on the fact that the _Silmarillion_ was originally written in Elvish; by Elves; for Elves; and mostly about Elves. As everyone knows, Elves have a profoundly different outlook than that of Men, at once more intimate and more remote; both ancient and ever-young; living always in two worlds at once. The very nature of Elves-- their songs;\* their bread; their lands-- are subtly baffling to the senses of Men. It therefore seems reasonable that the tales closest to their hearts, that speak most clearly to their inner griefs and joys, will perforce be least comprehensible to Men. Spoken properly, the language of Elves is such that it conveys factual truth and emotional truth at the same time. An Elf, wishing to convey the magnitude of a world-altering upheaval-- some deeply felt, fundamental shift of nature-- would choose to describe it in the most evocative, poetic manner possible. _The world was flat, but is now made round._ Another Elf, hearing such a description, will understand not only the emotion but also the intended factual meaning. But Men are only roughly capable of such subtlety (though a few may learn to approach it, given time). This is why the songs of Elves affect Men so profoundly: they can only sense the meaning incompletely, and it dazzles them. The _Silmarillion_ tells the truth of the Elves, as the Elves understand it. Translated into the languages of Men, it is merely an approximaton: a shadow-shape, without depth or color. How long must one listen to the Elves, before one can truly understand the nature of the Silmarils, or the origin of the Sun and Moon, or where Earendil and Elwing now dwell? A day, or a lifetime? How does time flow, in the Elvish country? \*“Tra-la-la-lally,” my eye. What was it, Bilbo? Was it the Ring? Was it that concussion at the Battle of Five Armies? Were you smoking every new weed you came across, Bilbo? You smoked Mirkwood-leaves, didn’t you? You smoked the moss growing on the secret door. Fili and Kili couldn’t light a fire because you’d smoked all the tinder. ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/23 "2009-03-31T01:50:52Z")
**Terrifel** , your problem is with the Venus mobile; my problem is with flying Elwing. Somehow, I can sort of buy the whole star thing, but the idea that now the Power that uses mist and water is suddenly doing major transfiguration. Doesn’t fit. For a minute I thought I was reading Ovid’s _Metamorphoses_. It’s not like Ulmo had a history of zapping elves into birds or other animals. It’s just weird. OK. That we know of. I suppose there’s some weird Teleri cult that the Professor decided not to enlighten the world about. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/24 "2009-03-31T02:34:12Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > **Terrifel** , your problem is with the Venus mobile; my problem is with flying Elwing. Somehow, I can sort of buy the whole star thing, but the idea that now the Power that uses mist and water is suddenly doing major transfiguration. Doesn’t fit. > > For a minute I thought I was reading Ovid’s _Metamorphoses_. It’s not like Ulmo had a history of zapping elves into birds or other animals. It’s just weird. > > OK. That we know of. I suppose there’s some weird Teleri cult that the Professor decided not to enlighten the world about. Well… maybe it’s an ability that the Ainur all have, but tend to use only in direst emergency? All part and parcel of that ‘self-restraint’ ethic that your classier Servants of Iluvatar hew to. After all, if the Valar were to go around transmogrifying Elves into birds and such willy-nilly, mightn’t that be trespassing on the dominion of Yavanna, who is supposed to be in charge of such critters? She’d be all like: “Hey, where did these extra birds come from? I’m trying to maintain a balanced ecology here!” On the other hand, the birds are also messengers of Manwe; so that might be intruding on his turf as well. Then again, you’ve got to figure that Elwing was changed into not just any random bird, but a sea-bird-- which would surely be at least partially under Ulmo’s portfolio. One can see how this sort of thing has the potential to get vastly complicated. It makes sense that they would tend to avoid it if there’s any other possible solution available. No wonder Radagast is the only wizard with a reputation for shapeshifting. As Yavanna’s agent, he’s got carte blanche to transmogrify anybody into anything. You mess with Radagast, you better get used to hiding nuts for the winter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/25 "2009-03-31T02:45:19Z")
Radagast might be the only one who _deserves_ a reputation for shapechanging, but he’s not the only one who has it. Remember Sam begging Gandalf not to turn him into anything unnatural. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/26 "2009-03-31T03:08:53Z")
Point taken. Although in fairness, it’s actually Frodo who explicitly brings up the subject of shapechanging. Given that Sam is being aggressively manhandled by a huge man in a dress at the time, it’s quite possible that he is referring to something else entirely. > [@](#): > > ‘Mr. Frodo, sir,’ cried Sam quaking, ‘Don’t let him hurt me, sir! Don’t let him turn me into something unnatural! My old dad would take on so. As indeed many fathers do, upon learning that their son has become unnatural. Young Sam was still very insecure and conflicted at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/27 "2009-03-31T05:22:01Z")
The fact that Sir Ian McKellen is gay always lends that scene an additional layer of humor for me, given the homophobia of Tolkien’s day. Bonus points, **Terrifel** , for so aptly using the word “perforce” in your earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/28 "2009-03-31T14:09:59Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I am told that in his later years, Tolkien started revising the backstory on Celeborn and Galadriel, trying to turn them both into plaster saints. > > Sorry, Professor, she is much more interesting (and believable) as a rebellious Noldo who walked across the Arctic. Where did you hear that? That’s a new one on me. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Yup, that whole sequence just doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of the story. > > (My wife refers to it as “young hobbits on an acid trip.” Me, I wonder what sort of mushrooms Farmer Maggot was growing…) _Tim, Tim, Benzedrine! Hash, boo, Valvoline!_ The first time I read LOTR, I thought that Bombadil was out of place; I have since seen the error of my ways. In some ineffable way, he belongs. And if anybody on this board ever refers to him as “T-Bomb,” the way I have seen in one other place, I shall be forced to do something rash. RR ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/29 "2009-03-31T14:30:52Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Not precisely. My personal take on the matter is a bit more oblique, and is based on the fact that the _Silmarillion_ was originally written in Elvish; by Elves; for Elves; and mostly about Elves. . I just wanted to run a different idea up the flagpole. Someone once suggested to me that maybe Bilbo wrote the _Silmarillion_, and this, a _ **history** _, was a new idea for the Elves, who had never thought of trying to write down an objective view of the past before. Thus their deep respect for Bilbo, who from their point of view created a new art form. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/30 "2009-03-31T14:31:43Z")
> [@RiverRunner](#): > > Where did you hear that? That’s a new one on me. If you mean where did **mbh** hear that Galadriel walked across the arctic, I assume he’s referring to the crossing of the Helcaraxë. You’ll recall that the magnificent bastard Feanor led the murder of the Teleri and the raping of their ships; after making his way to Middle-Earth, he burned the ships rather than send them back for Fingolfin and his comrades (who included Galadriel). They made their way to Arda’s lesser continent on by going north till they got to ice, proceeding more or less easterly on the ice, and then south. Thus demonstrating that Galadriel, for all her winsomeness, was 497 times as manly as me. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/31 "2009-03-31T14:33:57Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > I just wanted to run a different idea up the flagpole. Someone once suggested to me that maybe Bilbo wrote the _Silmarillion_, and this, a _ **history** _, was a new idea for the Elves, who had never thought of trying to write down an objective view of the past before. Thus their deep respect for Bilbo, who from their point of view created a new art form. I’m with you that much of the Silmarillion was not written by Elves (though of course it came from Elvis sources). There’s too much about the House of Hurin & so forth for that to be credible for me. I hadn’t thought of Bilbo’s writing it, but now that I think on it it’s a nice idea. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/32 "2009-03-31T14:40:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m with you that much of the Silmarillion was not written by Elves (though of course it came from **Elvis sources** )… Bilbo Baggins, takin’ care of business. Thankyou, thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/33 "2009-03-31T14:41:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Bilbo Baggins, takin’ care of business. Thankyou, thankyouverymuch. You’ll pay for this, Isildur. Oh, how you’ll pay. ETA: You realize that the name “Elvis” means “all-wise,” no? In that context, what you foolishly imply to be an error can be seen as an especially subtle allusion to the profundity of Master Underhill’s research sources. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/34 "2009-03-31T18:32:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If you mean where did **mbh** hear that Galadriel walked across the arctic, I assume he’s referring to the crossing of the Helcaraxë. No, I’m familiar with that. I was referring to the “trying to turn Celeborn and Galadriel into plaster saints” part. RR ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/35 "2009-03-31T19:53:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You’ll pay for this, Isildur. Oh, how you’ll pay… Tell you what. I’ll forgive you for calling me by the name of the idjit who didn’t toss the One Ring into the volcano when he had the chance, and we’re even. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/36 "2009-03-31T19:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Thus demonstrating that Galadriel, for all her winsomeness, was 497 times as manly as me. You know, of course, that the name “Galadriel” (not her birth name, incidentally) literally means “Manly woman”. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/37 "2009-03-31T20:00:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You know, of course, that the name “Galadriel” (not her birth name, incidentally) literally means “Manly woman”. Hmmm. The Encyclopedia of Arda says it means “Maiden Crowned by a Radiant Garland”: [http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/g/galadriel.html](http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/g/galadriel.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/38 "2009-03-31T20:44:38Z")
I think it was in Unfinished Tales; I’ll double-check when I get home. But for comparison, “Gilthoniel” is “Star-kindler”, and “Gil-Galad” is “Star-man”, so that leaves the “galad” stem meaning “Man”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/39 "2009-03-31T20:50:48Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Tell you what. I’ll forgive you for calling me by the name of the idjit who didn’t toss the One Ring into the volcano when he had the chance, and we’re even. Isildur was neither idjit nor idiot. It was not his fault that he could not throw the ring into the volcano. He had no way to know that its eldritch power was so strong, and constituted in such a way, as to make its hold on him irresistable. I mean, seriously–how was he supposed to have come into this information? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/40 "2009-03-31T20:52:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You know, of course, that the name “Galadriel” (not her birth name, incidentally) literally means “Manly woman”. Dude! I thought only Qadgop would get that! You rock! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331.md?page=3)