# Tolkien thread: places in the books where the narrator is full of shit **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 30, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331 "2009-03-30T16:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/41 "2009-03-31T21:18:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it was in Unfinished Tales; I’ll double-check when I get home. But for comparison, “Gilthoniel” is “Star-kindler”, and “Gil-Galad” is “Star-man”, so that leaves the “galad” stem meaning “Man”. “Galadh” (dh representing voiced th sound as in Gwynedd or them), becoming galad in Middle-Earth Sindarin, means “tree” – actually, a particular category of tree, “orn” (as in Celeborn) being the other group. Think the birch-poplar group vs. the oak-hickory group for the distinction. (I think the reference is to the Two Trees from the Silmarillion, but would not be surprised to learn otherwise.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/42 "2009-03-31T21:21:20Z")
BTW, does that imply that Valinor actually means “Graceland”?? :o ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/43 "2009-03-31T21:22:00Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “Galadh” (dh representing voiced th sound as in Gwynedd or them), becoming galad in Middle-Earth Sindarin, means “tree” – actually, a particular category of tree, “orn” (as in Celeborn) being the other group. Think the birch-poplar group vs. the oak-hickory group for the distinction. (I think the reference is to the Two Trees from the Silmarillion, but would not be surprised to learn otherwise.) I don’t have my books at hand either, but Wikipedia ascribes the meaning I was trying to imply (correctly inferred by **Chronos)**) as being that of **Nerwen** , her earlier name. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/44 "2009-03-31T22:20:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t have my books at hand either, but Wikipedia ascribes the meaning I was trying to imply (correctly inferred by **Chronos)**) as being that of **Nerwen** , her earlier name. Isn’t Nerwen the obnoxious kitten in “Garfield”? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/45 "2009-03-31T22:29:41Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Isn’t Nerwen the obnoxious kitten in “Garfield”? Very few people realize how much Jim Davis owes to Tolkien. (You probably thought that “Garfield” was after the 19th century President, not a Silmirralion name, for example.) 😃 Actually, his name was **Nermal**. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/46 "2009-03-31T22:44:47Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The Bombadil episode was made up so that those hobbits wouldn’t have to confess to Gandalf that they wasted time on their trip getting stoned on bad pipe-weed. This is perhaps the single most sensible explanation I have ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/47 "2009-03-31T23:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > The Bombadil episode was made up so that those hobbits wouldn’t have to confess to Gandalf that they wasted time on their trip getting stoned on bad pipe-weed. If you haven’t read it yet, get hold of The Harvard Lampoon’s **Bored of the Rings** , when Tom Bombadil becomes Tim Benzedrino, with his lady Hashberry. ("Oh, wow! she said, falling forward. Don’t mind Hashberry, said Tim. Tuesdays are her day to crash." Then he gives them a nbag of M & Ms cunningly printed with little numbers. This seems like an appropriate time to resurrect an old sig of mine: “As Iluvatar is my Witness, I thought Balrogs could Fly!” ---
**Author:** ![Avumede](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/avumede/32/7235_2.png) [@Avumede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avumede)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/48 "2009-04-01T02:05:56Z")
There must be some good reason why the Fellowship didn’t ride through Gondor instead of trying to go over Caradhas and then through Moria. I know, in the book they doubted the allegiance of Rohan on the thinnest of rumors, and in book-logic the reality of trying to climb a mountain in the winter or going through Moria seemed like a much better alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/49 "2009-04-01T02:59:32Z")
> [@Avumede](#): > > There must be some good reason why the Fellowship didn’t ride through Gondor instead of trying to go over Caradhas and then through Moria. I know, in the book they doubted the allegiance of Rohan on the thinnest of rumors, and in book-logic the reality of trying to climb a mountain in the winter or going through Moria seemed like a much better alternative. Well, Gandalf at least knew that Theoden of Rohan was not holding to the Alliance very well – courtesy of Grima Wormtongue’s intrigues, as it turned out. However, and more importantly, the “Gap of Rohan” – the low open area between the Misty and White Mountains – was what they would need to pass through to get to Rohan from Eriador in the first place, and guess who lived at the north edge of that gap. The guy who had locked Gandalf up, preventing him from eeting Frodo & Co. early on – Saruman. Conclusion: Avoid the Gap of Rohan if at all possible. (You would have to pass by Isengard and the Gap and **then** cross over the White Mountains to get into western Gondor – the Langstrand and such. So going through Gondor, as opposed to crossing the mountains and accessing Anduin north of Rohan, or passing through the Gap and Rohan beyond it, was pretty much out. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/50 "2009-04-01T03:20:11Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t have my books at hand either, but Wikipedia ascribes the meaning I was trying to imply (correctly inferred by Chronos)) as being that of Nerwen, her earlier name. Ah, that would explain why I wasn’t able to find that meaning in _Unfinished Tales_. And “Manly woman” does seem rather unlikely to have been an endearing nickname given her by Teleporno. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/51 "2009-04-01T13:29:54Z")
Well, you can call her Artanis, or you can call her Nerwen, or you can call her Galadriel, but you _doesn’t_ has to call her late to dinner! [http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/n/nerwen.html](http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/n/nerwen.html) ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/52 "2009-04-01T14:33:07Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you haven’t read it yet, get hold of The Harvard Lampoon’s **Bored of the Rings** , when Tom Bombadil becomes Tim Benzedrino, with his lady Hashberry. That’s the source of the italicized quote in my first post in this thread. I loved that book. RR ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/53 "2009-04-01T22:33:03Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Bonus points, **Terrifel** , for so aptly using the word “perforce” in your earlier post. Superlative! I hope Tolkien would have approved. > [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > I just wanted to run a different idea up the flagpole. Someone once suggested to me that maybe Bilbo wrote the _Silmarillion_, and this, a _ **history** _, was a new idea for the Elves, who had never thought of trying to write down an objective view of the past before. Thus their deep respect for Bilbo, who from their point of view created a new art form. This is an interesting notion. Come to think of it, why would Elves feel the need to compile a history? No matter how long ago anything happened, they were either alive at the time, or could just go ask someone else who was alive at the time. (I exaggerate somewhat; still, consider Galadriel, who enjoyed firsthand conversations with the creators of Arda, and who undoubtedly is still alive today. To her, a ‘history of the world’ would just be another name for a ‘diary.’) In any case, I have to question whether Bilbo would have been all that concerned about a strictly objective history, rather than simply an opportunity to transcribe Elvish tales. I tend to doubt that he would have pressed his journalistic inquiries too far. ELROND: --and so, by the decree of Manwe, my parents returned never to Middle-Earth; but Vingilot my father’s ship was hallowed by the Valar and borne up even to the oceans of heaven. There he voyages even now, the Silmaril bound on his brow appearing to us as the light of the Morning Star. BILBO: Er… that star? Over there? That’s… your dad? ELROND: Even so. (WAVES) Hi, Dad. BILBO: Yes, but… literally? I mean, it’s not just, say, your way of poetically suggesting that the Valar imbued the Morning Star with the light of the Silmaril, and dedicated it to your dad the famous mariner, or something metaphorical along those lines? ELROND: I am not sure I understand your question. BILBO: Erm… never mind, sorry. Please continue. ELROND: As I was saying… upon his return, my mother flies to meet him on wings of silver-grey– BILBO: What? Wings? ELROND: Indeed. For she has learned all the tongues of birds, and from them has been taught the craft of flight– BILBO: These are literal wings? Your mom has actual, physical wings? And uses them to fly through space? I mean… how does that work? Does she actually turn into a bird? Does she grow wings, somehow? Did she build them herself? ELROND: Actually I believe she found the wings inside a MAGIC TALKING TROLL PURSE. BILBO: Er… point taken. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m with you that much of the Silmarillion was not written by Elves (though of course it came from Elvis sources). There’s too much about the House of Hurin & so forth for that to be credible for me. Well, they are family after all. Don’t tell me your family never shares stories about the weird relatives. If not… well, you know the old saying attributed to Elu Thingol: “At the family reunion, if you look around for the weird relatives, and you don’t see any, it’s you.” ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/54 "2009-04-01T22:44:40Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Isn’t Nerwen the obnoxious kitten in “Garfield”? I’m sorry to know this, but Nerwin is the nephew of Irwin the troll in the “Broom-Hilda” comic strip. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331/55 "2009-04-02T05:05:42Z")
No sorrier than we are to learn it. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkien-thread-places-in-the-books-where-the-narrator-is-full-of-shit/491331.md?page=2)