# Tolkienites: Did you recognize the Christian subtext in LotR when first you read it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747 "2011-12-29T19:10:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/41 "2011-12-31T06:20:50Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And waybread is not the Eucharist! See the middle paragraph [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lembas#Lembas), with three cites. Some discussion, plus a reference to Tolkien acknowledging “religious significance,” but unfortunately I do not have access to the original book. ---
**Author:** ![Voluble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4af34b/32.png) [@Voluble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voluble)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/42 "2011-12-31T06:35:44Z")
When I read it I thought more about the Cold War with the enlightened values of the west being pitted against the despotism of the eastern powers. I may be misremembering but I think Tolkien himself indicated he was thinking in terms of the recent World Wars and conflicts which he had lived through and which continued until the fall of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/43 "2011-12-31T07:43:48Z")
Just want to remind you guys that, just because you don’t see a Christian allegory doesn’t mean you can’t see a Christian subtext. Some of you seem to be arguing against the former but not the latter. A rather blatant example is _A Wrinkle in Time_, which is a rather Christian book that never becomes a direct allegory. (It does in later books, though.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/44 "2011-12-31T12:10:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just want to remind you guys that, just because you don’t see a Christian allegory doesn’t mean you can’t see a Christian subtext. Some of you seem to be arguing against the former but not the latter. No. I’m well aware of Tolkien’s feelings on allegory. What I’m saying is the subtext that I am hearing about (the transformative nature of suffering, the primacy of redemption as key to salvation, stuff like that) aren’t uniquely Christian. I could come up with a fantasy story based on a Hindu or Buddhist background and have those themes be as natural a part of the subtext - look at _Journey to the West_ - Monkey easily fits the same themes. > [@](#): > > A rather blatant example is _A Wrinkle in Time_, which is a rather Christian book that never becomes a direct allegory. (It does in later books, though.) But Wrinkle never really _hides_ the Christian subtext to _any_ extent. There are Bible quotes, angels, spiritual darkness held at bay by religious figures - hell, they visit a planet named after an archangel populated by what I identified at the time as straight-up cherubim. I wouldn’t even call any of that _sub_text. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/45 "2012-01-01T18:49:51Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > \*\*Tolkienites: Did you recognize the Christian subtext in LotR when first you read it? \*\* > > There isn’t a Christian subtext in LotR. The only similarities are that LotR and the Jesus myth are both a [Hero’s Journey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey) story and as such share many common concepts. A story can have a Christian subtext without having a Jesus character. Consider C. S. Lewis’s _Till We Have Faces_ and _The Great Divorce._ ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/46 "2012-01-01T19:46:22Z")
I always took it as a combination of Germanic, Saga style story telling, combined with a protest against industrial expansion and pollution. Though I’ve been told that the latter is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/47 "2012-01-02T09:38:14Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > […]combined with a protest against industrial expansion and pollution. > > Though I’ve been told that the latter is wrong. Not as far as I know - it was definitely in there. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/48 "2012-01-02T11:07:48Z")
I didn’t recongnise Christian subtext when I read it. I’ve read Tolkien shunned the interpretations of it as contemporary political allegory. It is too dependent on German medieval culture to be criticism of Germany and he was quoted saying something to the effect. While the tales have Celtic and other elements, most heroes are German heroes a la Niebelungelied more than anything. The earliest fragments of Tolkien world were written in WW1. This was not a war where heroes slay orchs left and right. It was a war where the soldiers sat in damp pits under mortar fire. Whenever there was a heroic charge it turned quickly into a pointless massacre. I would say its roots are in escapism more than anything else. The passages of Saruman corrupting environment are indeed criticism of industrialization. ---
**Author:** ![ballardfam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8797f3/32.png) [@ballardfam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ballardfam)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/49 "2012-01-02T18:42:32Z")
I thought Tolkien was using a kind of christian ‘manifest destiny’ thing with the time of the elves/hobbits/dwarves going & the time of man coming. Other than that, I don’t remember thinking of it in christian terms. Kinda OT but I was really surprised when I read all the christian offense about Pullman’s ‘Dark Materials’ trilogy. When I read it I thought it was a pro christian allegory. The familiars being stand ins for souls & the church in the books really being communism/atheism. Maybe just me. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/50 "2012-01-02T18:52:17Z")
> [@ballardfam](#): > > I thought Tolkien was using a kind of christian ‘manifest destiny’ thing with the time of the elves/hobbits/dwarves going & the time of man coming. Other than that, I don’t remember thinking of it in christian terms. > > Kinda OT but I was really surprised when I read all the christian offense about Pullman’s ‘Dark Materials’ trilogy. When I read it I thought it was a pro christian allegory. The familiars being stand ins for souls & the church in the books really being communism/atheism. > > Maybe just me. It’s a different thread, but I think you’re completely misreading _His Dark Materials_. It’s very anticlerical, being in many ways an attempt at a direct rebuttal to _The Chronicles of Narnia_. In particular, the overlong (in MHO) sequence in the Land of the Dead is a clear response to the scene in the stable near the end of _The Last Battle_. It’s too bad, really. Pullman began what could have been oen fo the all-time great fantasy series, but he got too caught up in kicking C.S. Lewis’s corpse. He was making his point a lot better in the first book, but then he got all overt. ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747/51 "2012-01-02T19:18:33Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > And there you make the mistake. In _Lord of the Rings_, the characters will to follow, even in darkness and doubt, is critical to the victory of Good over evil. They choose Good, even when it seems hopeless. They would not have been saved otherwise. Aside from which, that’s not exactly an _inaccurate_ description, but it’s the 2-cent version. Tolkein presents a subtle but extremely accurate version of the complicated Catholic relationship between human effort and Divine Will. There’s that, and there are the repeated hints that there’s A Plan working away in the background somewhere. You have lines like this, where Gandalf says to Frodo: > [@](#): > > “Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was _meant_ to find the Ring, and _not_ by its maker. In which case you also were _meant_ to have it. and that may be an encouraging thought.” I think [The Tolkien Professor](http://www.tolkienprofessor.com/) does a good job of pointing instances like this out in his discussion of Tolkien. I know I didn’t see that stuff when I first read LotR. But in the many times I’ve read it since, I’ve come to see a lot more in it than I saw when I was 15. 😉 And I also like “Till We Have Faces”. But then, I also really liked “Perelandra” too, back when I was a church-goer. I’m afraid to read it again now, in case I want to throw it against the wall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tolkienites-did-you-recognize-the-christian-subtext-in-lotr-when-first-you-read-it/607747.md?page=2)