# Tom Bombadil, Black Riders and the Old Forest **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060 "2015-05-28T18:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/41 "2015-05-29T20:09:10Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I thought it was going to be the [Bombadil is the Witch-King](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm) essay. This one is better though. I am not really a fan of that sort of thing. Neither of these are even done well. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/42 "2015-05-29T20:50:10Z")
Originally I didn’t like Tom Bombadil (especially after reading Bored of the Rings), but later, tonally, I came to feel that the visit to Tom and Goldberry was the last bit of pure sunshine left from being near the Shire before they begin the dissent into the darker story. So I did grow to like it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/43 "2015-05-29T21:01:15Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, that sort of thing tends to happen when you’re a zero level commoner who insists on going on a major quest. You come home a year later a 10th level Fighter and everyone is surprised because to them you’re still that commoner. Hey, they weren’t commoners, Pippin was the eldest son of the Thain and Merry was the Eldest son of the Master of Buckland. They were probably the highest ranked young Hobbits in the Shire in fact. But I agree with the 0 level to 10th level part. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/44 "2015-05-29T21:16:09Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Unfortunately, Hollywood would likely insist on making him very dark and very scary, removing all of the humor and songs from those scenes. Well, he was. Being trapped and slowly crushed inside Old Man Willow is a pretty gnarly prospect. The guy who makes a song about it ? Creepier. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/45 "2015-05-29T21:31:24Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Hey, they weren’t commoners, Pippin was the eldest son of the Thain and Merry was the Eldest son of the Master of Buckland. They were probably the highest ranked young Hobbits in the Shire in fact. > > But I agree with the 0 level to 10th level part. Yeah, Aristocrats, but level 1. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/46 "2015-05-30T01:07:34Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > And Merry’s sword stroke simply works because he’s a hobbit, in much the same way that Eowyn’s strike works because she’s a woman. I never got that. Was the Witch King killed by the power of semantics? > [@Chronos](#): > > The Ringwraiths were not physically powerful. Oh, sure, they were dudes with swords and armor, and any one of them could stand up to any untrained peasant when it came to brute force. But they were outmatched by Aragorn on Weathertop, or even by Farmer Maggot and his dogs. Their real weapon was fear, and while that wins battles, it doesn’t win straight-up fights. How could they be “outmatched”? I thought they were immortal. You don’t need to be particularly powerful physically or skilled with a sword if you can’t be killed by conventional weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/47 "2015-05-30T01:44:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I never got that. Was the Witch King killed by the power of semantics? Well, Tolkien _was_ an English Professor… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/48 "2015-05-30T01:53:37Z")
They couldn’t be killed, but they could be discorporated. They’ll come back, but in the short term it amounts to the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/49 "2015-05-30T01:56:41Z")
It’s a virtual death sentence on whomever strikes effectively at one. (Well, okay, hitting them with a river is probably safe.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/50 "2015-05-30T02:04:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I never got that. Was the Witch King killed by the power of semantics? Who among us is immune to the power of some antics? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/51 "2015-05-30T02:36:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, Aristocrats, but level 1. So, some hobbits go into an agent’s office, and they say, “we’ve got this act we want to tell you about…” ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/52 "2015-05-30T03:37:29Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > Tolkien makes it very clear throughout the story that Middle Earth is an old world, that civilizations have risen and fallen and that changes (not always welcome ones) are coming. It isn’t surprising that he shows us vignettes of the ‘old’ places in Middle Earth, the places that have been forgotten or left along the wayside. It’s in keeping with the story. These sections may not be directly necessary to the narrative, but much of Tolkien isn’t. Middle Earth isn’t tidy. It has Ents and Orcs from the oldest of days. It has the Old Forest and the various elves who were there when Middle Earth is new. There are numerous instances where T discusses various bastions of the original world. And I think it serves to illustrate that while the hobbits seems very isolated in their bucolic, rural setting, that in previous times things were very different in their immediate neighborhood. My thoughts exactly. I liked Tom … I didn’t like his singing all that much but I liked him. He was a hint of greater mysteries about this world. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/53 "2015-05-30T03:54:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I never got that. Was the Witch King killed by the power of semantics? No. People always get that one ass-backwards. The prophecy isn’t that he can’t be killed by man - but that he\* won’t\*. It’s not a “if you do A, then B will happen” prophecy, it’s a “B is what’s gonna happen” prophecy, in the Greek mold - inexorable, inescapable fate. Of course, I can’t blame people for missing the difference - the Witch-King didn’t get it, either 🙂 [QUOTE=Glorfindel] _He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall._ [/QUOTE] So, why and how does Eowyn gets to frag him, and specifically her ? Well, one theory is that Merry’s magic knife weakened him enough for a full kill, but my own opinion is that she really didn’t. She merely destroyed his corporeal form temporarily, same as with any Nazgul “kill”. And then the Ring blew up before he could reform again, and the Nazgûl along with it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/54 "2015-05-30T06:00:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I never got that. Was the Witch King killed by the power of semantics? No, his dagger was wrought with spells especially for the overthrow of Angmar. Merry’s magic dagger weakened his bond, and then Eowyn could kill him. As Kobal2 put it, it was a prophecy and one the Witch King relied upon. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/55 "2015-05-30T09:32:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > LotR written 1937 \> 1949. “Hippy” was coined around 1960. The Bored of the Rings versions were sure hippies. What where their names? Tim Benzedrine and Hashbrownie? ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/56 "2015-05-30T09:54:02Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > The Bored of the Rings versions were sure hippies. What where their names? Tim Benzedrine and Hashbrownie? Hashbury…as in Haight-Ashbury. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/57 "2015-05-30T10:47:16Z")
I’ve never before come across – or conceived of – speculation about Tom Bombadil as an evil being, who just puts on a show of benevolence and jollity. The “He’s the Witch-King” piece would seem, for sure, to be tongue-in-cheek; but the piece linked-to in Merneith’s post #17, gave me some pause for thought – without my being anywhere near sold on the theory. There’s an interesting angle mentioned in both, on Galdalf’s parting with the hobbits on the final leg of the homeward journey, for his desired long talk with Bombadil. I’d always seen this as a friendly affair, with the two – at great length – comparing notes and chewing the fat over millennia of history; but if Bombadil is evil, then the scenario of a showdown, with Gandalf possibly casting him down or out, is appropriate. I’ve seen on another board, a further non-standard “take” on Bombadil – the suggestion that although he’s benign, he is in fact not completely all-powerful in his realm of creepy things: he has to be proactive and wary in maintaining his position, and can at times be vulnerable to the “nasties” (presumably his house is a safe zone). Suggested evidence for this, was drawn from one of his sayings: “None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master: His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.” The inference drawn, being the possibility of evil things actually catching Tom unawares and accomplishing his undoing: hence the “None has ever caught him”, etc. Not merely Tom spouting rhyming nonsense, as is often his wont: and shedding light on his perpetually rushing around as though in a great hurry, and making lots of noise. An interesting perspective on the T.B. enigma… I tend to the view that LOTR – as with a good many works in the “fantasy” ballpark – too-rigorous searching for logic / consistency is unlikely to have a very happy outcome for the searcher: rather, a case to make, for disbelief-suspension apparatus to be put on to working overtime. Examples, a couple of things mentioned in this thread. For one, the hobbits being unlikely to make it to Bree, with the Riders in pursuit, if it were not for their deviation through the Old Forest, and Bombadil’s help (my feeling would be, if there had been no Bombadil / spooky forest, the author would have found some other means of getting the party where they needed to go, un-annihilated). Or: the unlikelihood of Bombadil (there and in place, for countless ages before hobbits settled in the Shire) being totally unknown and unheard-of by the hobbits – even the Bucklanders, who at times venture into the Old Forest. Re this last, I for one would be inclined to think, “In the scheme of the whole epic, minor details – let ‘em go.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/58 "2015-05-30T15:01:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, his dagger was wrought with spells especially for the overthrow of Angmar. Merry’s magic dagger weakened his bond, and then Eowyn could kill him. As Kobal2 put it, it was a prophecy and one the Witch King relied upon. It wasn’t that the dagger was designed to destroy him. It’s just that like so much of the magic in Middle Earth, the dagger had an affinity for/with it’s old owner, the long-dead mortal enemy of the Witch King. As such, the dagger was anathematic to its masters’ old foe. It was unbearable to the WK in the same way that elven rope burned Gollum or elven food was nasty to orcs and Gollum. And it’s totally awesome detail for the story. My favorite in the whole trilogy. Revenge from beyond the grave in the form of one’s enemy’s weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/59 "2015-05-30T21:48:36Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > . . . I for one would be inclined to think, “In the scheme of the whole epic, minor details – let ‘em go.” Oh, absolutely; it’s just a dumb game, like the Sherlock Holmes game (which has drawn some people to the degree of reading period newspapers to study train schedules and weather reports!) (I wish I could find it again; I once read an essay where the writer deduces who “Mycroft Holmes” really was, some real-life civic functionary – a permanent-under-secretary? – who had immense behind-the-scenes power. It wasn’t wholly convincing, but was definitely worth contemplating.) Some of these Bombadil objections, I’ll trow, none of us ever actually thought of when we first read the chapters in question. We have to work to come up with objections this picayune! ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/60 "2015-05-30T23:29:51Z")
Merry had something for the witch king, Pippin had something to impress Denethor with, Sam’s sword helped confuse Sauron when it was taken from Frodo. Bombadil was also an important talking point during the Council of Elrond. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=4)