# Tom Bombadil, Black Riders and the Old Forest **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060 "2015-05-28T18:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/61 "2015-05-31T00:16:39Z")
Bombadil was my favorite character the story. I loved the air of age and mystery around him. > [@Chronos](#): > > I agree that he doesn’t really fit in with the rest of the world… and I like it that way. Some things just don’t fit. That’s how life works. A world without any misfits in it rings much more untrue than one with a few. this > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > I think one of the most unusual things about the whole Bombadil situation is that JRRT didn’t manage to retcon Tom into his earlier mythos, like he did so much of his later writings. He was the Master of flexing, stretching, adapting, and inventing new material when it came to trying to make it all fit together. And buried deep in some of his manuscripts are rudimentary attempts to make Tom fit better. > > But I think he was, in the end, defeated in this venture because he didn’t really understand himself how TB came to be, nor how the concept could be fit into his subcreation. > > Just my feeble maunderings on the topic after decades of reading waaaay too much obscure JRRT stuff. and this. Tolkien wrote Bombadil first, and didn’t want to give him up. And Tom added depth and history to the story. I feel like he is the first hint at just how large the story will be. > [@Lars\_Aruns](#): > > Without even clicking, I just _know_ what essay you’re linking to. Very thought provoking - I disagree, of course, but it was an interesting mental exercise. And if it is the web site I remember, there should also be a very interesting piece on Star Wars as well. This is fascinating. It’s wrong, of course. We know that Bombadil came first, and his cheery house contrasts to the dark world around him. Bombadil is a neutral nature God, I think. But I love the analysis. That’s hardly the only problem in LOTR. A friend wrote a very convincing essay pointing out that the eagles could have taken Frodo and the ring from Rivendell straight the volcano, and ended the story early. But that would be a much less interesting story. The narrative thrust is important. Bombadil is a bigger, older Beorn, who serves a similar narrative purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/62 "2015-05-31T00:49:35Z")
Master love Frodo. Master feed Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/63 "2015-05-31T03:26:28Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A friend wrote a very convincing essay pointing out that the eagles could have taken Frodo and the ring from Rivendell straight the volcano, and ended the story early. We have conclusively debunked that meme on this board. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/64 "2015-05-31T03:28:58Z")
link? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/65 "2015-05-31T05:48:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Tolkien wrote Bombadil first, and didn’t want to give him up. And Tom added depth and history to the story. I feel like he is the first hint at just how large the story will be. That’s my view as well. Not everything can be explained and there is a lot beneath view. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/66 "2015-05-31T08:48:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We have conclusively debunked that meme on this board. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > link? Not the thread, but a pretty strong argument against your friend’s thesis, nonetheless. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/67 "2015-05-31T10:16:56Z")
Being flippant here; but I recall the thoughts expressed by a poster on yet another board, some while back, involving still another line on the “evil Tom” notion. Imaginable ugly scenarios were being mused on, re situations of all of Middle-Earth under one or another malevolent tyranny. One guy opined that the most utterly awful thing in that category which he could think of, would be Tom Bombadil as tyrant and supreme overlord. He wrote of the stark horror of compulsory non-stop capering around and declaiming “derry dol” and “ring-a-ding-dillo” and all the rest, for everyone under Tom’s rule; and considered that life under the iron heel of Sauron would be pleasant in comparison. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/68 "2015-05-31T11:09:41Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Not the thread, but a pretty strong argument against your friend’s thesis, nonetheless. > > 😃 Warning(?): that’s the only comic in that entire series that isn’t about sex and people who are obsessed with it. I was reading through the comic, and was totally shocked that this one–which I’d been linked to before–was in there. As for a more serious answer: the one I think trumps them all is that, even if you could get them to help, the Eagles are sentient creatures and thus would not have willingly parted with the ring after bearing it. Once in the sky, they’d effectively be the masters of the ring. Remember, the ring bearer is the one controlling the ring–they need not wear it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/69 "2015-05-31T18:18:28Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=747931&highlight=eagles+sauron](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=747931&highlight=eagles+sauron) 1. The Eagles will be corrupted also. 2. The Will of Sauron will stop them 3. The nazgul will finish them off. 4.the Eagles can’t “fly over and drop the Ring into the Crack”, because the fires are accessible only through a large tunnel [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18092277&highlight=eagles+sauron#post18092277http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738078&highlight=eagles+sauron](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18092277&highlight=eagles+sauron#post18092277http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738078&highlight=eagles+sauron) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/70 "2015-05-31T18:46:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=747931&highlight=eagles+sauron](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=747931&highlight=eagles+sauron) > > 1. The Eagles will be corrupted also. > > 2. The Will of Sauron will stop them > > 3. The nazgul will finish them off. > > 4.the Eagles can’t “fly over and drop the Ring into the Crack”, because the fires are accessible only through a large tunnel > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18092277&highlight=eagles+sauron#post18092277http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738078&highlight=eagles+sauron](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18092277&highlight=eagles+sauron#post18092277http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738078&highlight=eagles+sauron) Hmm, I will read this later. But 1. maybe. I guess ponies aren’t sentient enough to be tempted. 😉 2. why would it be more effective against them than against the actual plan? A couple of hobbits were wandering around in MORDER for ages, but weren’t stopped. 3. same as 2 4. the idea I saw was for an eagle to give Frodo a ride to the base of the mountain, not for the eagle itself to take the ring and drop it into Mt. Doom. So this isn’t relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/71 "2015-05-31T19:52:09Z")
(Sorry, continuing the Eagles hijack): Gandalf can carry the ring in an envelope, can’t he (or am I remembering that scene wrong)? Or how about in a bag on the end of a stick or something? Then he could ride the eagle, be dropped off at the mouth of the cave, drop the stick and all in the fire, go back outside and be picked up again before the ring is fully melted. The eagles seem to like Gandalf, and maybe he could promise them that this would be the last time because his work in Middle Earth would then be done. Also, there are apparently a lot of eagles, so they could have enough on the trip so that the outer ones could deal with the Nazgul while the main eagle continues on its course. This seems at least possible, although I am perfectly willing to believe that there are as-yet-unwritten factors making this not work. I first fell in love with the Hobbit in the 4th grade, and finally found the LOTR trilogy when I was 14 (1964). I have loved the stories since then, and I would hate to lose them to a more practical and speedy approach like this. But it’s hard for me to deny the possibility. Back to Tom Bombadil - I always assumed he was some personification of Nature, since he is apparently as old as Middle Earth, he was there before Morgoth, before elves and humans were awakened (I think). There is no indication he was created in the same way as other beings. Maybe he’s a stray Valar of some kind. But as a personification of Nature he would have control over huorns, and being so old he would know the secrets of how to control things like barrow wights. As Nature, he is neither good nor evil, he just Is. He would be opposed to the dark forces, though, because of what they do to the Natural world. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/72 "2015-05-31T21:56:45Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > . . . Gandalf can carry the ring in an envelope, can’t he (or am I remembering that scene wrong)? Or how about in a bag on the end of a stick or something? . . . Boromir might be able to tell you differently… Just being near it can be overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/73 "2015-05-31T23:09:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Boromir might be able to tell you differently… Just being near it can be overwhelming. Yeah, but it’s not like Boromir tried to seize the ring two days out of Rivendell. If there must be an explanation other than there is no story if Frodo does a quick eagle-dunk into Mt. Doom for the victory, I would go with this: Manwe (whose eagles they are) wanted the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth to pay the iron price to get rid of Sauron. After all, it was their responsibility that Sauron was running around Middle-Earth in the third age, anyway. The Valar intervened directly to defeat Morgoth, but there would be no direct intervention this time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/74 "2015-05-31T23:19:50Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Hmm, I will read this later. But > > 1. maybe. I guess ponies aren’t sentient enough to be tempted. 😉 > 2. why would it be more effective against them than against the actual plan? A couple of hobbits were wandering around in MORDER for ages, but weren’t stopped. > 3. same as 2 > 4. the idea I saw was for an eagle to give Frodo a ride to the base of the mountain, not for the eagle itself to take the ring and drop it into Mt. Doom. So this isn’t relevant. Gandalf and Aragorn (and likely Elrond and Galadrial) kept Sauron busy what with armies, the palantir, ect. In fact that’s Gandalf’s and Aragorns plan when the attack the Gates- they knew they couldn’t win, they just had to keep Saurons Eye and Will focused on _them,_ not looking for hobbits. Sure, and the Frodo claims the Ring for his own, Sauron sends the Nazgul, and either they kill Frodo or Frodo becomes the new Dark Lord. Note the lack of a Gollum to fall into the pit with the Ring in your plan.😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/75 "2015-05-31T23:24:23Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > (Sorry, continuing the Eagles hijack): > > Gandalf can carry the ring in an envelope, can’t he (or am I remembering that scene wrong)? Or how about in a bag on the end of a stick or something? Then he could ride the eagle, be dropped off at the mouth of the cave, drop the stick and all in the fire, go back outside and be picked up again before the ring is fully melted. The eagles seem to like Gandalf, and maybe he could promise them that this would be the last time because his work in Middle Earth would then be done. Maybe. But again, even Gandalf had issues opposing the Will of Sauron and he couldn’t won vs the Witch-King. It’d take a while to fly across Mordor and Sauron would be focusing his Will and his forces like crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/76 "2015-06-01T00:03:29Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > Manwe (whose eagles they are) wanted the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth to pay the iron price to get rid of Sauron. After all, it was their responsibility that Sauron was running around Middle-Earth in the third age, anyway. The Valar intervened directly to defeat Morgoth, but there would be no direct intervention this time. The first part I can see (although surely the eagles are as free as men to ignore the wishes of their creator). But why was it the responsibility of the free people of Middle Earth? Just because one man refused to destroy the ring when he had the chance? That seems harsh on the millions of others who had no hand in the decision. Sort of Adam-and-Eve-y harsh. And in this matter Manwe or the eagles seem a little inconsistent. Why did they help at the battle of the five armies? Why did they help him escape from Isengard? Does this mean they can help in any way except to perform the one act that would defeat Sauron forever? [QUOTE=DrDeth] Maybe. But again, even Gandalf had issues opposing the Will of Sauron and he couldn’t won vs the Witch-King. It’d take a while to fly across Mordor and Sauron would be focusing his Will and his forces like crazy [/QUOTE] I disagree with both of these. Gandalf was not supposed to oppose Sauron directly, like a wizard war, but he certainly didn’t quail under the gaze of the Eye. All he has to do is fly by on the back of an eagle. He was a Maia of equally powerful origin, and without the ring Sauron did not present a real direct threat against Gandalf. Also, what the movie (extended version) did with Gandalf vs. Witch King always got my goat, there was no confrontation like that in the book (at least not that I remember) and there is no reason to suppose that Gandalf had anything serious to fear from that quarter. Finally, if the eagles came at Mt Doom from the southwest (i.e. from Gondor), I don’t think it would take all that long for them to fly there. Sauron had nothing to throw at them except for the Nazgul\* and if there are enough eagles to run interference, they should make it through. [QUOTE=Trinopus] Boromir might be able to tell you differently… Just being near it can be overwhelming. [/QUOTE] Boromir was never convinced that the ring should be destroyed, he was split on the issue. Gandalf had no doubts, and I would expect he did have a much stronger will. \*I am enjoying my mental picture of thousands of orcs jumping up and down on the ground in frustration as the eagles fight and defeat the Nazgul’s flying lizards, and fly serenely on to Mt. Doom. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/77 "2015-06-01T00:57:39Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > . . . as the eagles fight and defeat the Nazgul’s flying lizards, and fly serenely on to Mt. Doom. It isn’t even clear that the Nazgul had flying lizards until later. They don’t show up until shortly before Helm’s Deep. Back when the decision to fly would have made sense, the Black Riders were still on specially bred and trained horses. So, yeah, it would have been even easier. No airborne opposition! ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/78 "2015-06-01T01:11:56Z")
The eagles are agents of the Valar and wil not have anything to do with ring. It’s for men and elves to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/79 "2015-06-01T01:46:44Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I disagree with both of these. Gandalf was not supposed to oppose Sauron directly, like a wizard war, but he certainly didn’t quail under the gaze of the Eye. All he has to do is fly by on the back of an eagle. He was a Maia of equally powerful origin, and without the ring Sauron did not present a real direct threat against Gandalf. Also, what the movie (extended version) did with Gandalf vs. Witch King always got my goat, there was no confrontation like that in the book (at least not that I remember) and there is no reason to suppose that Gandalf had anything serious to fear from that quarter. Finally, if the eagles came at Mt Doom from the southwest (i.e. from Gondor), I don’t think it would take all that long for them to fly there. Sauron had nothing to throw at them except for the Nazgul\* and if there are enough eagles to run interference, they should make it through. > \*I am enjoying my mental picture of thousands of orcs jumping up and down on the ground in frustration as the eagles fight and defeat the Nazgul’s flying lizards, and fly serenely on to Mt. Doom. wiki: I_n Tolkien’s letters, the author noted that Sauron “was of course a ‘divine’ person (in the terms of this mythology; a lesser member of the race of Valar).”[6] Tolkien noted that he was of a “far higher order” than the Maiar who later came to Middle-earth as the Wizards Gandalf and Saruman.[7]_ Gandalf knew, by prophecy, that he couldn’t take down the Witch King. There\* was\* such a confrontation in the books, but it was more of a stand-off, however the Witch King seemed to think he was about to smash Gandalf- until he heard the horns of Rohan and had to leave. - and then, the thousand crack archers stationed at Mt Doom kill the eagles. or Gandalf. Not to mention the trolls waiting in the tunnel. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/80 "2015-06-01T03:05:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > . . . \* and then, the thousand crack archers stationed at Mt Doom kill the eagles. or Gandalf. . . . The same troops that kept Frodo and Sam from just waltzing in? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=5)