# Tom Bombadil, Black Riders and the Old Forest **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060 "2015-05-28T18:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/81 "2015-06-01T03:32:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > …Note the lack of a Gollum to fall into the pit with the Ring in your plan.😛 this sounds like the major problem with the eagle approach. But I don’t see how the people in the story, making choices, could have foreseen it. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/82 "2015-06-01T04:05:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > wiki: I_n Tolkien’s letters, the author noted that Sauron “was of course a ‘divine’ person (in the terms of this mythology; a lesser member of the race of Valar).”[6] Tolkien noted that he was of a “far higher order” than the Maiar who later came to Middle-earth as the Wizards Gandalf and Saruman.[7]_ You left out the previous sentence, which seems to contradict the above: _The (mostly) lesser beings who entered the world, of whom Sauron was one, were called Maiar._ In any case, remember that Sauron had poured a huge amount of his power into the ring, and consequently his original power was diminished considerably; he could not even take physical form. > [@DrDeth](#): > > - and then, the thousand crack archers stationed at Mt Doom kill the eagles. or Gandalf. I’m willing to bet that the eagles could fly high enough to avoid any arrows. However, this is a real enough threat that it might have had to be dealt with. Perhaps, in the Council of Elrond, they might have planned a distraction similar to the march to the Black Gates, to distract Sauron from having any forces around Mt. Doom. Remember also that they always counted on Sauron not expecting anyone to try to destroy the ring, only to try to use it. Anyway, my point in all this is not that it would surely have worked, but that it might have worked, and might have seemed like a better plan to those devising how to destroy the ring. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/83 "2015-06-01T04:12:01Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The first part I can see (although surely the eagles are as free as men to ignore the wishes of their creator). But why was it the responsibility of the free people of Middle Earth? Just because one man refused to destroy the ring when he had the chance? That seems harsh on the millions of others who had no hand in the decision. Sort of Adam-and-Eve-y harsh. And in this matter Manwe or the eagles seem a little inconsistent. Why did they help at the battle of the five armies? Why did they help him escape from Isengard? Does this mean they can help in any way except to perform the one act that would defeat Sauron forever? It’s been a long time since I’ve delved into Tolkien apocrypha, so this might be more of my impressions remembered from the Silmarillion and Lost Tales -After the defeat of Morgoth and the submerging of Beleriand, the Valar basically said they would not be taking a direct hand in the affairs of Middle-Earth. Sending the wizards to Middle-Earth in mortal bodies to indirectly work against Sauron was a compromise measure. -Isildur wasn’t the only person who failed to destroy the evil of Sauron. The Numeroreans defeated and captured Sauron as well, but did not destroy him, -Harsh? Do you know what happened to Numenor? -The eagles are the messengers of Manwe and are (or at least their ancestors were ) lesser Maia themselves. I believe they can also fly to Valinor without invoking the ban. They have autonomy and can do things like help out a friend in a pinch and hunt and kill the goblins that defile their mountains, but are not going to disobey edicts from Manwe. Flying down in mass formation to Mordor to destroy Sauron would definitely be on the no-no list. -You’ll notice what the eagles didn’t do in The Hobbit, which is help Gandalf battle the Necormancer (Sauron) in Dol Guldur. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/84 "2015-06-01T05:54:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The same troops that kept Frodo and Sam from just waltzing in? They werent right there, since Sauron had no idea anyone would try to destroy the Ring. But give Sauron a days warning while you fly in, and sure, they’d be right there. But yeah , Sam & Frodo just waltzed thru a huge army of them, in disguise. I suppose technically you might be able to disguise a Eagle as a Fellbeast… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/85 "2015-06-01T05:56:23Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I’m willing to bet that the eagles could fly high enough to avoid any arrows. > > . Yeah, and then _drop_ Gandalf with the Ring right in the middle of them from a 1000 feet? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/86 "2015-06-01T06:19:56Z")
82nd Airborne Wizard Division has a ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/87 "2015-06-01T06:23:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > 82nd Airborne Wizard Division has a ring to it. Let me just _ring_ that up. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/88 "2015-06-01T09:32:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Another thought, just a thought, about old Bombadillo; shouldn’t they in Buckland know him, and of Old Man Willow? Seems to me he’d come and see, visit Farmer Maggot, trade in butter and in mushrooms, maybe pipeweed also. Sure, he likes his loneliness, lives in isolation, but he’s such a jovial sort, look how he hosted Frodo. He likes a poem and a song, and so does his leman. You’re more right than you know. Tom did go and visit the Shire, in the poem “Bombadil Goes Boating.” He floats down the Withywindle to its confluence with the Brandywine. Once there, he’s confronted by Shire border guards, who suspect him of being one of the evils of the Old Forest or a Barrow-Wight, and threaten to shoot him with arrows if he crosses the Brandywine. He calls the Hobbits fraidy-cats and threatens to call “orks” against them. They say they’re not afraid of him and shoot arrows through his hat. While they’re arguing the current takes him farther downstream until he lands on the shore of the Marish at nightfall. Farmer Maggot finds him and they go through Rushey to Bamfurlong without stopping at the inn. At Maggot’s house they party into the night. Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot’s house was lighted; fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted. Maggot’s sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy, his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty. Songs they had and merry tales, the supping and the dancing; Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing, Tom did a hornpipe when he was not quaffing, daughters did the Springle-Ring, goodwife did the laughing. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/89 "2015-06-01T14:10:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Another thought, just a thought, about old Bombadillo; shouldn’t they in Buckland know him, and of Old Man Willow? Seems to me he’d come and see, visit Farmer Maggot, trade in butter and in mushrooms, maybe pipeweed also. Sure, he likes his loneliness, lives in isolation, but he’s such a jovial sort, look how he hosted Frodo. He likes a poem and a song, and so does his leman. > [@Johanna](#): > > You’re more right than you know. Tom did go and visit the Shire, in the poem “Bombadil Goes Boating.” He floats down the Withywindle to its confluence with the Brandywine. Once there, he’s confronted by Shire border guards, who suspect him of being one of the evils of the Old Forest or a Barrow-Wight, and threaten to shoot him with arrows if he crosses the Brandywine. He calls the Hobbits fraidy-cats and threatens to call “orks” against them. They say they’re not afraid of him and shoot arrows through his hat. While they’re arguing the current takes him farther downstream until he lands on the shore of the Marish at nightfall. Farmer Maggot finds him and they go through Rushey to Bamfurlong without stopping at the inn. At Maggot’s house they party into the night. > > Stars shone on Bamfurlong, and Maggot’s house was lighted; > fire in the kitchen burned to welcome the benighted. > > Maggot’s sons bowed at door, his daughters did their curtsy, > his wife brought tankards out for those that might be thirsty. > Songs they had and merry tales, the supping and the dancing; > Goodman Maggot there for all his belt was prancing, > Tom did a hornpipe when he was not quaffing, > daughters did the Springle-Ring, goodwife did the laughing. A contradiction / inconsistency can be seen, namely: the linked-to “Terrible Secret of Tom Bombadil” essay points out that according to the LOTR text (with which I have checked) – none of the hobbits have heard of Tom Bombadil or know anything about him; not even Merry, who as heir to the Master of Buckland, would presumably be well au fait with everything on his geographical “patch”. (In the relevant part of the book, Merry tells the others that he has heard, at least, that “there are various queer things living deep in the Forest, and on the far side”, including “something that makes paths” which “shift and change from time to time” – but he appears to know nothing more definite than that.) The “Boating” poem as quoted here by **Johanna** , obviously contradicts this: hobbits in Buckland, and especially the Maggots, _are_ acquainted with Bombadil. (I seem to recall from the poem – haven’t got it to hand, in full – that the hobbit guards address TB as “Woodman Tom”, seeming to have a fair idea of what he’s all about, and that really he’s OK; and that the interaction between them and him is basically friendly-if-barbed banter / horseplay – they take care just to shoot for his hat, doing no harm to his person.) To be ascribed, I feel – to there being in, and between, _Hobbit / LOTR_, various minor contradictions / inconsistencies, of which this is one; these being often a function in greater or lesser scope of – to quote: > [@Deeg](#): > > According to the History of the LOTR, Tolkien wrote TB before the LOTR (and possibly before The Hobbit). IIRC it was just a silly short story he made up for his children. When he was commissioned to write a sequel to The Hobbit he decided early on to include TB. **At that point he envisioned the sequel to be light-hearted like its predecessor** and TB fit right in. \*\* As the writing progressed, however, it took on a darker and more adult tone \*\* but Tolkien loved the TB character so much he couldn’t remove him. I have the impression that such minor “blips” are present in more or less all lengthy and expansive fantasy and / or sci-fi works: authors and editors, however careful, are not infallible. Am greatly of the school re such things, of “live with it, and let it go – enjoy the bigger picture” (not that finding and pointing out nitpick-fodder, is not fun in its way). On the subject of minutiae and beyond-trivial trivia: there is a real-world Bamfurlong – a tiny place in Lancashire, England, just outside the town of Wigan. Eighty years ago, as now, a location of urban squalor rather than bucolic beauty ! My guess is: Tolkien’s sons attended the Catholic boarding-school Stonyhurst, in the same county of Lancashire (set in pretty countryside, which according to some students of JRRT, made some contribution to his inspiration for the Shire). On the way to and from this venue, he can be envisaged as coming across Bamfurlong, and liking the name. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/90 "2015-06-01T14:23:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Their real weapon was fear > [@Trinopus](#): > > **Chronos** and **The\_Peyote\_Coyote** : Good points, both. Now, just in my opinion, I think four well-armed and armored ordinary guys (trained soldiers) could probably take the whole of Bree, if starting from an advantage of total surprise. _Nobody expects the Nazgul Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise… our two weapons are fear and surprise…_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/91 "2015-06-01T17:33:26Z")
So to sum up the whole idea of flying the Ring to Mt Doom. 1. First ya gotta get the Eagles to say OK, and it may be against the Rules. 2. Frodo has to willingly hand the Ring over to Gandalf in a envelope or box. 3. Gandalf has to be willing to do this, it may be against the Rules. 4. Gandalf has to be not tempted by the Ring being handed over willingly. The Eagles have to be not tempted. 5. Gandalf \*the Grey \*(he does not become the White in this scenario) then has to fly from Elronds place to Mt Doom, facing down the Will of both Sauron and Saruman, not to mention whatever nasty spells, weather, etc they can toss. 6. Sauron has 1000 orcs waiting at Mt Doom, with the Witch King and 8 Ringwaiths. 7. The Eagles & Gandalf fight their way thru the Nine. 8. They then drop Gandalf from out of archery range. 9. Gandalf fights his way thru 1000 orcs. 10. Gandalf drop the ring… or decides to claim it. So, sure- maybe it could be done. But it aint as simple as "The eagles casually fly to Mt Doom and then drop the ring. " ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/92 "2015-06-01T19:31:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So to sum up the whole idea of flying the Ring to Mt Doom. > > 1. First ya gotta get the Eagles to say OK, and it may be against the Rules. > 2. Frodo has to willingly hand the Ring over to Gandalf in a envelope or box. > 3. Gandalf has to be willing to do this, it may be against the Rules. > 4. Gandalf has to be not tempted by the Ring being handed over willingly. The Eagles have to be not tempted. > 5. Gandalf \*the Grey \*(he does not become the White in this scenario) then has to fly from Elronds place to Mt Doom, facing down the Will of both Sauron and Saruman, not to mention whatever nasty spells, weather, etc they can toss. > 6. Sauron has 1000 orcs waiting at Mt Doom, with the Witch King and 8 Ringwaiths. > 7. The Eagles & Gandalf fight their way thru the Nine. > 8. They then drop Gandalf from out of archery range. > 9. Gandalf fights his way thru 1000 orcs. > 10. Gandalf drop the ring… or decides to claim it. > > So, sure- maybe it could be done. But it aint as simple as "The eagles casually fly to Mt Doom and then drop the ring. " Not the version I was thinking of: 1. First ya gotta get the Eagles to say OK, and it may be against the Rules. 2. Frodo rides on an eagle, flying a stealth mission 3. Gondor, et al, mount the same frontal attack to distract Sauron as what actually happened 4. The eagle drops Frodo off at the base of Mt. Doom, or as near to the crack as possible. 5. Frodo drops the ring… or decides to claim it. Really much simpler than the book as written. And you could even have Smeagol be mystically attracted to the ring, and find Frodo at the base of Mt. Doom, and play exactly the same role. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/93 "2015-06-01T19:59:05Z")
It’s true: eventually every Tolkien thread becomes all about someone’s great idea that the Eagles could’ve just flown the Ring to Mt. Doom. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/94 "2015-06-01T20:10:49Z")
The simple, in universe easy answer for this is not that the eagles “couldn’t” have let them do that. It’s that they WON’T. It’s that easy. All this “would’ve could’ve should’ve” stuff is irrelevant. That said, I think the other reason they didn’t try it is because there is NOTHING SECRETIVE about flying through the sky on a giant eagle, and they could have expected a very warm, nine-nazgul standing outside the Cracks of Doom kind of reception. I don’t really understand why people think this could actually have worked. It seems obvious to me that this is a doomed idea. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/95 "2015-06-01T20:16:31Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Not the version I was thinking of: > > 1. First ya gotta get the Eagles to say OK, and it may be against the Rules. > 2. Frodo rides on an eagle, flying a stealth mission > **3. Gondor, et al, mount the same frontal attack to distract Sauron as what actually happened** > 3. The eagle drops Frodo off at the base of Mt. Doom, or as near to the crack as possible. > 4. Frodo drops the ring… or decides to claim it. > > Really much simpler than the book as written. And you could even have Smeagol be mystically attracted to the ring, and find Frodo at the base of Mt. Doom, and play exactly the same role. And just how were you planning to spend the intervening year while everyone gets Gondor et. al ready for battle? Also, you’ll note that the only reason the Big Distraction at the end of RotK WORKED is because Sauron thought they had the ring. Given your hypothetical setup, he’d just have rolled his eyes and let them hurl themselves uselessly at the Gates. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/96 "2015-06-01T20:37:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Not the version I was thinking of: > > 1. First ya gotta get the Eagles to say OK, and it may be against the Rules. > 2. Frodo rides on an eagle, flying a stealth mission > 3. Gondor, et al, mount the same frontal attack to distract Sauron as what actually happened > 4. The eagle drops Frodo off at the base of Mt. Doom, or as near to the crack as possible. > 5. Frodo drops the ring… or decides to claim it. > > Really much simpler than the book as written. And you could even have Smeagol be mystically attracted to the ring, and find Frodo at the base of Mt. Doom, and play exactly the same role. Umm, no, since there’s no Aragorn as leader of the West and no Gandalf the White, just Denethor saying “fuck you, I want the Ring”. Without all the things that occur between the meeting at Rivendell and the final battle outside the Gates, Aragorn is still a simple Ranger and Gandalf is still the Grey. Meanwhile Saruman _does_ take Rohan (No Gandalf the White, No Aragorn). When the Orcs arrive they _do_ take Gondor (no Gandalf to buck them up, no Aragorn to kill the Corsairs, no Riders from Rohan.) In any case, there’s a difference between two hobbits sneaking thru on the ground wearing magical hidey capes, and a hobbit flying thru the air straight at Mt Doom. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/97 "2015-06-02T01:29:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > You’re more right than you know. Tom did go and visit the Shire, in the poem “Bombadil Goes Boating.” . . . I’m embarrassed to say, I’ve never read that story/poem. Where is it published? (Cheap-Jack Harrowfoot wants to know if it’s online anywhere?) > [@RTFirefly](#): > > _Nobody expects the Nazgul Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise… our two weapons are fear and surprise…_ “Fear, surprise, chaos, fear, and stealth.” “You mentioned fear twice.” “I like fear.” > [@Airk](#): > > . . . there is NOTHING SECRETIVE about flying through the sky on a giant eagle . . . Tell that to modern Special Forces units who make sneak attacks with helicopters on a regular basis. The horizon-to-view of low-flying craft (or birds) is very, very small, especially if you take full advantage of ground clutter. Also, if you’re flying faster than the enemy’s means of communications – and no one is swifter than Tolkien’s Eagles! – then your surprise at the destination point is assured, no matter how many scouting posts you’ve overflown on the way there. > [@Airk](#): > > . . . the only reason the Big Distraction at the end of RotK WORKED is because Sauron thought they had the ring. . . . ??? Is it actually stated that Sauron thought the ring was present at the Morannan? I don’t remember this. Aragorn revealed himself and Narsil/Anduril, but certainly didn’t volunteer any information about the ring. Sauron might very well have imagined they’d hidden it in Minas Tirith…or Lorien…or Rivendell…or the Grey Havens…or even sunk it in the sea. None of the Great in the last army of the free had openly wielded the ring. Sauron knew that it had been found by Gollum and taken by “Baggins” of the Shire, but after that, did he have any real knowledge? Did the Nazgul sense the ring at Weathertop? Since Frodo actually put it on, and he could see them, it seems sure that they could have seen him. But they lost track of it again at Bruinen. You may be right, but I don’t recall anything specific on this. (This is more fun than Bible Study!) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/98 "2015-06-02T02:48:40Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > hobbits in Buckland, and especially the Maggots, _are_ acquainted with Bombadil. Minor correction–the Maggots lived in the Marish in Eastfarthing, across the river from Buckistan. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/99 "2015-06-02T09:41:26Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Minor correction–the Maggots lived in the Marish in Eastfarthing, across the river from Buckistan. My bad – and I was even consulting the map ! No mushrooms for me for two days 🙂 . ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/100 "2015-06-02T09:46:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Tell that to modern Special Forces units who make sneak attacks with helicopters on a regular basis. The horizon-to-view of low-flying craft (or birds) is very, very small, especially if you take full advantage of ground clutter. Also, if you’re flying faster than the enemy’s means of communications – and no one is swifter than Tolkien’s Eagles! – then your surprise at the destination point is assured, no matter how many scouting posts you’ve overflown on the way there. Pretty sure modern soldiers don’t have to deal with an evil Eye that can see everything is real time AND project his consciousness with dreadful consequences at the speed of thought. At least I hope they don’t. That’d warrant hazard pay at least. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=6)