# Tom Bombadil, Black Riders and the Old Forest **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060 "2015-05-28T18:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/101 "2015-06-02T10:21:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m embarrassed to say, I’ve never read that story/poem. Where is it published? (Cheap-Jack Harrowfoot wants to know if it’s online anywhere?) “Bombadil goes Boating” is one of the poems in _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_, which, true to its name, isn’t just about Tom Bombadil. It must have been 1981 or 2 when I last read it. > [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? Is it actually stated that Sauron thought the ring was present at the Morannan? I don’t remember this. Aragorn revealed himself and Narsil/Anduril, but certainly didn’t volunteer any information about the ring. Sauron might very well have imagined they’d hidden it in Minas Tirith…or Lorien…or Rivendell…or the Grey Havens…or even sunk it in the sea. > > None of the Great in the last army of the free had openly wielded the ring. Sauron knew that it had been found by Gollum and taken by “Baggins” of the Shire, but after that, did he have any real knowledge? LOTR doesn’t make a habit of giving the reader a Sauron’s Eye view of anything, but certainly the plan discussed at the Last Debate in Minas Tirith was to fake a prideful assault on the Black Gate so that Sauron would be convinced that the new Ringlord was sticking his neck out too far too soon. Sauron certainly had an inkling when Frodo put the Ring on to escape Boromir, but he couldn’t pinpoint the location of the Ringbearer in the time he had. It’s unclear whether he got any further hint when Sam put it on, but Sam was quite convinced that if he actually put on the Ring in Mordor itself he would be spotted and telepathically dominated in a matter of moments. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/102 "2015-06-02T12:30:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? Is it actually stated that Sauron thought the ring was present at the Morannan? I don’t remember this. Aragorn revealed himself and Narsil/Anduril, but certainly didn’t volunteer any information about the ring. Sauron might very well have imagined they’d hidden it in Minas Tirith…or Lorien…or Rivendell…or the Grey Havens…or even sunk it in the sea. > > None of the Great in the last army of the free had openly wielded the ring. Sauron knew that it had been found by Gollum and taken by “Baggins” of the Shire, but after that, did he have any real knowledge? > > Did the Nazgul sense the ring at Weathertop? Since Frodo actually put it on, and he could see them, it seems sure that they could have seen him. But they lost track of it again at Bruinen. > > You may be right, but I don’t recall anything specific on this. > > (This is more fun than Bible Study!) From ROTK, Chapter 9, “The Last Debate”: > [@Gandalf](#): > > As Aragorn has begun, so we must go on. We must push Sauron to his last throw. We must call out his hidden strength, so that he shall empty his land. We must march out to meet him at once. We must make ourselves the bait, though his jaws should close on us. He will take that bait, in hope and in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say: “So! he pushes out his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever.” So it was certainly Gandalf’s plan to make Sauron think Aragorn (or someone) was using the Ring, and marching onto Mordor in his arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/103 "2015-06-02T15:33:03Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > From ROTK, Chapter 9, “The Last Debate”: > > So it was certainly Gandalf’s plan to make Sauron think Aragorn (or someone) was using the Ring, and marching onto Mordor in his arrogance. Precisely the passage I was thinking of. Sorry, Eagle-plan enthusiasts, but as far as I am concerned, this one is settled. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/104 "2015-06-02T15:45:27Z")
I’m pretty sure the answer is that the Eagles wouldn’t do it. But assuming that they would - I;m just not seeing the objections here. What is to stop the plot from unfolding exactly as it did - that is, with Sauron thinking the armies of the west were producing a rash new ringlord? Just posit a year of preparing before the eagles set out. “Don’t be hasty”. Also, I’m not getting that a flight by eagles would of necessity be seen - didn’t Sauron cover the whole sky with a “broil or fume” making visibility skyward non-existant - in part to spread gloom, but also to cover the flying missions of his own winged servants? Seems to me that would do nicely to cover a stealth eagle mission going the other way - just fly in the massive cloud of concealing fug. 😃 True, the magical sight of Sauron could no doubt pierce his own fug if he wanted to - but it is well-established that he’s not always looking everywhere. He has to concentrate in order to see - for example, by warnings provided by his various servants - but the fug would do nicely to conceal the eagles from them. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/105 "2015-06-02T17:19:00Z")
The Eagles are the direct servants of Manwë, who personally led the trouncing of Sauron’s boss, Morgoth. You seriously think Sauron’s **All-Seeing** Eye wasn’t spending time keeping track on what the Eagles were up to? And the Eagles wouldn’t have done it because they were _Manwë’s servants_ - the same Manwë who’d decreed that the people of Middle-Earth had to get their own bacon out of the fire this time; no more hosts of the Valar and Maiar swooping in (like eagles) to pull their fat out again. They were on their own. The Istari were there to inspire men, not to defeat Sauron. So, too, the other servants of the Valar. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/106 "2015-06-02T17:29:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is to stop the plot from unfolding exactly as it did - that is, with Sauron thinking the armies of the west were producing a rash new ringlord? Just posit a year of preparing before the eagles set out. “Don’t be hasty”. Because, as I said: Umm, no, since there’s no Aragorn as leader of the West and no Gandalf the White, just Denethor saying “fuck you, I want the Ring”. Without all the things that occur between the meeting at Rivendell and the final battle outside the Gates, Aragorn is still a simple Ranger and Gandalf is still the Grey. Meanwhile Saruman does take Rohan (No Gandalf the White, No Aragorn). When the Orcs arrive they do take Gondor (no Gandalf to buck them up, no Aragorn to kill the Corsairs, no Riders from Rohan.) ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/107 "2015-06-02T17:35:00Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The Eagles are the direct servants of Manwë, who personally led the trouncing of Sauron’s boss, Morgoth. You seriously think Sauron’s **All-Seeing** Eye wasn’t spending time keeping track on what the Eagles were up to? > > And the Eagles wouldn’t have done it because they were _Manwë’s servants_ - the same Manwë who’d decreed that the people of Middle-Earth had to get their own bacon out of the fire this time; no more hosts of the Valar and Maiar swooping in (like eagles) to pull their fat out again. > > They were on their own. The Istari were there to inspire men, not to defeat Sauron. So, too, the other servants of the Valar. I think this is the best answer, and more palatable to me than “it’s the responsibility of the free peoples of Middle Earth” as if they were paying for some Original Sin. More like they have to do it to prepare themselves for the 4th Age when they will be the only and last recourse against any evil that shows up. No more Sauron or Saruman, but also no more wizards/Istari and no more elves to call on when evil appears. If they can’t defeat Sauron with the tools at hand, then they won’t be able to handle a 4th Age. So what happens to Tom Bombadil in the 4th Age? If he is a personification of Nature, presumably he will continue as he always has. Are there any other beings from elder days that would be left in Middle Earth? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/108 "2015-06-02T17:39:10Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The Eagles are the direct servants of Manwë, who personally led the trouncing of Sauron’s boss, Morgoth. You seriously think Sauron’s **All-Seeing** Eye wasn’t spending time keeping track on what the Eagles were up to? > > And the Eagles wouldn’t have done it because they were _Manwë’s servants_ - the same Manwë who’d decreed that the people of Middle-Earth had to get their own bacon out of the fire this time; no more hosts of the Valar and Maiar swooping in (like eagles) to pull their fat out again. > > They were on their own. The Istari were there to inspire men, not to defeat Sauron. So, too, the other servants of the Valar. Hence “I’m pretty sure the answer is that the Eagles wouldn’t do it.” The other objections don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/109 "2015-06-02T17:44:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because, as I said: Umm, no, since there’s no Aragorn as leader of the West and no Gandalf the White, just Denethor saying “fuck you, I want the Ring”. Without all the things that occur between the meeting at Rivendell and the final battle outside the Gates, Aragorn is still a simple Ranger and Gandalf is still the Grey. Meanwhile Saruman does take Rohan (No Gandalf the White, No Aragorn). When the Orcs arrive they do take Gondor (no Gandalf to buck them up, no Aragorn to kill the Corsairs, no Riders from Rohan.) This just doesn’t follow of necessity. It assumes that the council simply hands the ring to the eagles at Rivendell straightway, and no further plot develops. Sure, it wouldn’t be the exact same development if the plan changed - but you could still get Aragorn and Gandalf travelling to the scene of the action. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/110 "2015-06-02T17:46:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because, as I said: Umm, no, since there’s no Aragorn as leader of the West and no Gandalf the White, just Denethor saying “fuck you, I want the Ring”. Without all the things that occur between the meeting at Rivendell and the final battle outside the Gates, Aragorn is still a simple Ranger and Gandalf is still the Grey. Meanwhile Saruman does take Rohan (No Gandalf the White, No Aragorn). When the Orcs arrive they do take Gondor (no Gandalf to buck them up, no Aragorn to kill the Corsairs, no Riders from Rohan.) Honestly, I don’t see how any of this is relevant. Or, more to the point, why Frodo walking across middle earth matters to any of this. I do think “the eagles won’t do it” is relevant, but I don’t see how the existing cast of characters couldn’t make much the same distraction they actually made. I didn’t realize that every LOTR thread devolves to this discussion (and apologies to those who wanted to talk more about Bombadil) but i think there’s a reason it comes up, that’s because would have worked, modulo manwe allowing it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/111 "2015-06-02T18:02:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This just doesn’t follow of necessity. It assumes that the council simply hands the ring to the eagles at Rivendell straightway, and no further plot develops. > > Sure, it wouldn’t be the exact same development if the plan changed - but you could still get Aragorn and Gandalf travelling to the scene of the action. How would Gandalf become the White without meeting the Balrog? And without Gandalf the White, you still have Theoden under the power of Saruman. And Aragorn was by no means convinced he wanted to become the King, the journey of the Fellowship was what convinced him. So yeah, he’d be there, maybe- as the leader of a squad of Rangers. The issue is that without the journey of the Fellowship- Rohan falls, Denethor remains in charge then loses Gondor (since Aragorn never calls forth the Dead nor do the Riders of Rohan come to the rescue). Everyone had a critical part to play, every encounter critical. It fell into place like dominoes. The Journey of the Fellowship did far more than just get the Ring into Mt. Doom. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/112 "2015-06-02T18:11:38Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I do think “the eagles won’t do it” is relevant, but I don’t see how the existing cast of characters couldn’t make much the same distraction they actually made. Ok, how did they manage that distraction? First you had to have Gandalf fall and be reborn as the White. Next Aragorn and Gandalf had to make sure Rohan didnt fall and Gandalf THE WHITE had to get Theoden out of the thrall of Saruman. (Gandalf \*the grey \*couldnt do it). Next, Aragorn had to get the palantir from Saruman and wrest control of the stone from Sauron (which made Sauron wet his pants and strike early). Then, Gandalf had to organize the defense of Gondor and take command after Denethor went bonkers. Then Aragorn had to make the Big decision to become King and summon the Dead. Without Aragorn claiming the Kingship and Gandalf taking command, and Theoden riding to rescue Gondor- there is no Army to challenge Sauron at the gates of Mordor. You also need Frodo to briefly put on the Ring exactly where he did to hide from Boromir so that Sauron is alerted that the West has the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/113 "2015-06-02T18:50:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How would Gandalf become the White without meeting the Balrog? And without Gandalf the White, you still have Theoden under the power of Saruman. > > And Aragorn was by no means convinced he wanted to become the King, the journey of the Fellowship was what convinced him. So yeah, he’d be there, maybe- as the leader of a squad of Rangers. > > The issue is that without the journey of the Fellowship- Rohan falls, Denethor remains in charge then loses Gondor (since Aragorn never calls forth the Dead nor do the Riders of Rohan come to the rescue). > > Everyone had a critical part to play, every encounter critical. It fell into place like dominoes. > > The Journey of the Fellowship did far more than just get the Ring into Mt. Doom. Easy-peasy. At the Council of Elrond: "Resolved: we will use the eagles to fly the ring to the cracks of doom. For this plan to work, we need to keep Sauron off-balance and looking away from his own lands. You nine must achieve that. Travel as fast as you can, as if you were carrying the ring to establish a new ring-lord in Gondor … ". The rest all follows exactly like it did, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/114 "2015-06-02T18:54:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Easy-peasy. > > At the Council of Elrond: "Resolved: we will use the eagles to fly the ring to the cracks of doom. For this plan to work, we need to keep Sauron off-balance and looking away from his own lands. You nine must achieve that. Travel as fast as you can, as if you were carrying the ring to establish a new ring-lord in Gondor … ". > > The rest all follows exactly like it did, more or less. Well, then you dont have Gandalf on those Eagles do you? And–You also need Frodo to briefly put on the Ring exactly where he did to hide from Boromir so that Sauron is alerted that the West has the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/115 "2015-06-02T19:00:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, then you dont have Gandalf on those Eagles do you? Why do you need him on those eagles? > [@](#): > > And–You also need Frodo to briefly put on the Ring exactly where he did to hide from Boromir so that Sauron is alerted that the West has the Ring. My impression was that it was the business with Aragorn and the Palantir that freaked Sauron out. He thought Aragorn took the Ring and was a-commin’ for him. Sauron always knew that someone in the West was hiding the ring - hence his sending out the Riders. He certainly knew that the ring reached Rivendell, when those Riders dragged their sorry undead asses back to Mordor after their elf-dunking. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/116 "2015-06-02T19:07:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Why do you need him on those eagles? > > My impression was that it was the business with Aragorn and the Palantir that freaked Sauron out. He thought Aragorn took the Ring and was a-commin’ for him. > > Sauron always knew that someone in the West was hiding the ring - hence his sending out the Riders. He certainly knew that the ring reached Rivendell, when those Riders dragged their sorry undead asses back to Mordor after their elf-dunking. 😃 Who is going to carry the Ring then? Frodo at the Seat of Seeing was a critical juncture too. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/117 "2015-06-02T19:23:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Who is going to carry the Ring then? Why not … Frodo (and Sam)? 😕 Add two elf-lords to the party of nine setting out from Rivendell; retain Frodo and his faithful companion, Sam, as eagle-riders. They spend a year in Rivendell resting up for their great ride, while all Sauron’s energies are spent trying to hunt down the Nine Walkers (whom he thinks are carrying the Ring). As in the original, he fails to hunt them down - resorceful folks, those - and they end up doing all sorts of harm to his cause, culminating with Aragorn arising as the King-to-be and leading an army to the Black Gate … just as Sauron’s gaze is absolutely _fixed_ on the ‘rash new ringlord’ Aragorn … the Eagles make a stealthy flight through the black fug that Sauron had himself generated (oh the irony of it all! ‘how often does evil impair itself…’) to deposit Frodo and Sam at the entrance to Mt. Doom. Though whether Frodo could drop it in, is another story … really, no worse that the original plan. 😃 > [@](#): > > Frodo at the Seat of Seeing was a critical juncture too. How was it critical? As far as the plot goes, it was just another close shave for Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/118 "2015-06-02T19:32:04Z")
Oh good god, can we fucking knock it off with the Eagles hijack? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/119 "2015-06-02T19:34:19Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Oh good god, can we fucking knock it off with the Eagles hijack? Every time I see a comment like this, I always wonder why anyone bothers to make it. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/120 "2015-06-02T19:44:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Every time I see a comment like this, I always wonder why anyone bothers to make it. Well, in this case, no doubt the utterly unoriginal genius ideas about OMG!Eagles! provokes an equally unoriginal response. Because _I_ always wonder why anyone bothers to point out the Eagles as the solution to the One Ring when it is _obvious_ that what the decision at Rivendell _should_ have been: Make Sauron think that Tom Bombadil has the One Ring, so that all the Ringwraiths and hordes of Orcs and such descend upon him and Goldberry and utterly annihilate them. Thereby allowing Frodo to stroll into Mordor at his leisure, and ensuring I never have to endure another Tolkien thread full of whacky complaints about Bombadil’s existence or the Eagles’ not offering frequent flier discounts to Mt. Doom. Cripes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=7)