# Tom Bombadil, Black Riders and the Old Forest **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060 "2015-05-28T18:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/121 "2015-06-02T19:55:26Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Well, in this case, no doubt the utterly unoriginal genius ideas about OMG!Eagles! provokes an equally unoriginal response. > > Because _I_ always wonder why anyone bothers to point out the Eagles as the solution to the One Ring when it is _obvious_ that what the decision at Rivendell _should_ have been: > > Make Sauron think that Tom Bombadil has the One Ring, so that all the Ringwraiths and hordes of Orcs and such descend upon him and Goldberry and utterly annihilate them. Thereby allowing Frodo to stroll into Mordor at his leisure, and ensuring I never have to endure another Tolkien thread full of whacky complaints about Bombadil’s existence or the Eagles’ not offering frequent flier discounts to Mt. Doom. > > Cripes. My heart bleeds for your poor eyes, forced to read a thread which causes them such distress. If only there were a solution! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/122 "2015-06-03T01:15:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Pretty sure modern soldiers don’t have to deal with an evil Eye that can see everything is real time AND project his consciousness with dreadful consequences at the speed of thought. > At least I hope they don’t. That’d warrant hazard pay at least. True… But Sauron’s eye can’t do those things either. Yes, he almost spotted Frodo when Frodo was wearing the ring at Amoth Hen. And, yes, he would instantly have spotted Frodo or Sam (and did spot Frodo and Gollum) if they were wearing the ring anywhere inside Mordor. But Sauron’s confusion, when he mucks with Pippin using the Palantir of Orthanc indicates that he is far from “all seeing.” He requires an agent in order to see ordinary affairs and events. That’s why he had to send a black rider (flyer) to Orthanc to collect the “Prisoner” that he thought Saruman was holding for him. Otherwise, why didn’t he spot the ring in the Dunlands, or in Moria, or in the Emyn Muil, or in Ithilien? “Can see everything?” Far from it! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/123 "2015-06-03T02:57:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m embarrassed to say, I’ve never read that story/poem. Where is it published? (Cheap-Jack Harrowfoot wants to know if it’s online anywhere?) Lore-Mistress Parfeth regrets to inform Master Harrowfoot that it can be found online only in [partial form](https://books.google.com/books?id=7xaOAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20adventures%20of%20tom%20bombadil&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false), for the Dwarven keepers of the electronic lore-scrolls are loath to part with any of their hoard free of charge. They require an offering of 13 silver pieces to fully open the ancient pages unto the ken of Man. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/124 "2015-06-03T04:21:34Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > …Make Sauron think that Tom Bombadil has the One Ring, so that all the Ringwraiths and hordes of Orcs and such descend upon him and Goldberry and utterly annihilate them. Thereby allowing Frodo to stroll into Mordor at his leisure, and ensuring I never have to endure another Tolkien thread full of whacky complaints about Bombadil’s existence or the Eagles’ not offering frequent flier discounts to Mt. Doom. Better yet, give the ring to Bombadil (Frodo did, briefly) and let him ride an eagle to Mt. Doom. Then he could throw it in the crack, since it has no power over him. Problem solved. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/125 "2015-06-03T13:40:13Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > They were on their own. The Istari were there to inspire men, not to defeat Sauron. So, too, the other servants of the Valar. Then what was Gandalf doing at the gate of Minas Tirith when the Lord of the Nazgul was ready to ride in? Are you saying he wasn’t ready to personally do battle with the onetime Witch-King if the latter hadn’t chickened out? Or just that the Istari were willing to defeat the greatest of Sauron’s servants, but not Sauron himself? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/126 "2015-06-03T13:49:20Z")
Or that he was willing to defeat even the greatest of Sauron’s servants, but just not Sauron himself? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/127 "2015-06-03T14:47:30Z")
My modest proposal - In the future, every edition of The Fellowship of the Ring should have this addition – a few paragraphs at the Council of Elrond where the eagles are brought up as a ring disposal method and Gandalf politely explains why it won’t work (non-interference policy, possible corruption by ring, hard to get to actual ring-dropping spot, WHATEVER). Even JRRT’s son who guards the legacy so zealously might see the wisdom in this. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/128 "2015-06-03T16:30:36Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > My modest proposal - > > In the future, every edition of The Fellowship of the Ring should have this addition – a few paragraphs at the Council of Elrond where the eagles are brought up as a ring disposal method and Gandalf politely explains why it won’t work (non-interference policy, possible corruption by ring, hard to get to actual ring-dropping spot, WHATEVER). Even JRRT’s son who guards the legacy so zealously might see the wisdom in this. Is Christopher Tolkien still active as his JRRT’s literary executor? He’s 90 years old! While I don’t think the text of LOTR should be modified by anyone other than JRRT (who can’t since he’s been dead since 1973), I’d love to hear Christopher Tolkien’s explanation of why the Eagles couldn’t or wouldn’t help deliver the Ring to Mt. Doom, if he’s got one. Even if it wasn’t any more satisfactory than any that I’ve yet heard, at least it would be _definitively_ sucky. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/129 "2015-06-03T16:47:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > True… But Sauron’s eye can’t do those things either. > > Yes, he almost spotted Frodo when Frodo was wearing the ring at Amoth Hen. And, yes, he would instantly have spotted Frodo or Sam (and did spot Frodo and Gollum) if they were wearing the ring anywhere inside Mordor. > > But Sauron’s confusion, when he mucks with Pippin using the Palantir of Orthanc indicates that he is far from “all seeing.” He requires an agent in order to see ordinary affairs and events. That’s why he had to send a black rider (flyer) to Orthanc to collect the “Prisoner” that he thought Saruman was holding for him. > > Otherwise, why didn’t he spot the ring in the Dunlands, or in Moria, or in the Emyn Muil, or in Ithilien? “Can see everything?” Far from it! He can’t see everything all the time at once, but his gaze can reach every place, if given a reason to. Throughout the novel, he’s basically sweeping Middle Earth at random, hoping to ping on the Ring. Towards the end, he’s sweeping Mordor exclusively, having gotten tips that Bilbo was here - that’s why Gandalf and Aragorn’s final ditch plan is to try and distract him with a big show at the Black Gates. I’m thinking a flight of giant eagles over Mordor is distracting enough, though 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/130 "2015-06-03T20:07:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > …I’m thinking a flight of giant eagles over Mordor is distracting enough, though 🙂 I don’t see why a single giant eagle would be especially showy. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/131 "2015-06-03T20:45:48Z")
“Pull!” BANG. “Oh look at this shiny ring that fell with the Eagle…” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/132 "2015-06-05T18:31:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “Pull!” BANG. “Oh look at this shiny ring that fell with the Eagle…” The problem is, that’s true of _any_ plan to get the Ring to Mt. Doom. There IS no good plan. Hell, in the story itself, there is no plan at all, beyond ‘head in that general direction, then decide what to do when we’re a bit closer to Mordor.’ Presented as a plan ahead of time, what Frodo and Sam actually DO has tons of weaknesses. You can say “looking back on it, it worked, so its chances of success are 100%” and compare every other possible plan to the fact that this non-plan succeeded, sure. But that’s like someone who won the lottery urging all his friends to go buy lottery tickets because “you see how well it worked for me!” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/133 "2015-06-05T18:46:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I don’t see why a single giant eagle would be especially showy. > > 😕 It’s a giant bird. In the sky. To paraphrase the stoic philosopher Brick-Top, it ain’t like that’s incon-fucking-spicuous, is it ? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/134 "2015-06-05T18:51:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s a giant bird. In the sky. To paraphrase the stoic philosopher Brick-Top, it ain’t like that’s incon-fucking-spicuous, is it ? It certainly would be, in a nice clear sky … but from the story, we know that Sauron had spewed out a dense cloak of nasty black shit that completely covered the sky in question. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/135 "2015-06-05T19:50:36Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Well, the Peter Jackson movie (and the Ralph Bakshi one, for that matter) drop Tom Bombadil altogether, and moviegoers didn’t seem to think anything was wrong, so he could certainly have eliminated the Bombadil sequence without loss. I beg to differ, I heard a lot of Tom Bombadil fans bemoaning his loss. It wasn’t until I watched it with the writer/director commentaries that I eventually accepted that it wouldn’t have fit easily into the film and they were right to leave it out. But I still wish they hadn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/136 "2015-06-05T19:59:35Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I rather liked Tom and Goldberry. They knew the Dark, and stood against it by taking joy in the world as it was, without need to own it. This, this, this, a thousand times this. And the rest of your post as well, but especially this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/137 "2015-06-05T20:05:58Z")
> [@Dunkelheit](#): > > I beg to differ, I heard a lot of Tom Bombadil fans bemoaning his loss. It wasn’t until I watched it with the writer/director commentaries that I eventually accepted that it wouldn’t have fit easily into the film and they were right to leave it out. But I still wish they hadn’t. I agree and disagree. In the film as shown on the screen? Never. But Jackson could have shot it and added to the DVD set, which would have been super-cool. I’d still like Jackson to shoot Tom and also the Scouring and release them on a direct to vid set. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/138 "2015-06-05T21:18:38Z")
The Scouring doesn’t work when Saruman has already been killed by a knife in the back from his minion. And…you know, maybe the long fall onto a spike. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/139 "2015-06-05T21:30:38Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The Scouring doesn’t work when Saruman has already been killed by a knife in the back from his minion. > > And…you know, maybe the long fall onto a spike. Isn’t that only in the Extended Edition, and not in the theatrical release? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/140 "2015-06-05T21:48:35Z")
I knew Bombadil would be left out needle the movie was released. I was sad about that, but movies are short and need to be tightly plotted. Bombadil was a complication. I was pleased that the movie manages to give some of the sense of time and richness of the world through the Silmarillion clips, despite excising Tom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=8)