# Tom Bombadil, Black Riders and the Old Forest **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060 "2015-05-28T18:44:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![scoots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@scoots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scoots)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/141 "2015-06-05T22:11:13Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Because _I_ always wonder why anyone bothers to point out the Eagles as the solution to the One Ring when it is _obvious_ that what the decision at Rivendell _should_ have been: > > Make Sauron think that Tom Bombadil has the One Ring, so that all the Ringwraiths and hordes of Orcs and such descend upon him and Goldberry and utterly annihilate them. Actually I think Tom wins that fight (as long as it’s on his territory). I’m not sure there is anything in middle earth that can defeat Tom. He may get corrupted eventually but not before he has defeated everything else - last as he was first ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/142 "2015-06-06T03:41:08Z")
The main objection to giving Tom the Ring is not that he’d be corruptible, but that the powers and policies of the great ones out in the wider world meant nothing to him. The danger was that he’d forget where he put it or otherwise fail to guard it from the Enemy. Gandalf and Elrond drop in—“Tom! Where’s the Ring?” and he just goes “Ring a ding dillo! Old Tom threw it in the Withywindle, take a chillo-pillo!” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/143 "2015-06-06T07:30:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It certainly would be, in a nice clear sky … but from the story, we know that Sauron had spewed out a dense cloak of nasty black shit that completely covered the sky in question. While Sauron’s strategic acumen is… questionable, at times ; I doubt he’d have deliberately blinded himself OR his grunts in his own house. Orcs see in the dark. The Eye presumably sees from the spirit realm anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/144 "2015-06-06T17:05:12Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Is Christopher Tolkien still active as his JRRT’s literary executor? He’s 90 years old! He certainly was last year, when he edited his Father’s translation of Beowulf. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/145 "2015-06-06T18:59:57Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The main objection to giving Tom the Ring is not that he’d be corruptible, but that the powers and policies of the great ones out in the wider world meant nothing to him. The danger was that he’d forget where he put it or otherwise fail to guard it from the Enemy. Gandalf and Elrond drop in—“Tom! Where’s the Ring?” and he just goes “Ring a ding dillo! Old Tom threw it in the Withywindle, take a chillo-pillo!” I’ve never seen it. Like I’ve said [before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=676820), [QUOTE=me] The astonishing part is, if you stick to Tom’s actual appearances, he simply comes across as an entirely practical guy who asks perfectly relevant questions and equips our heroes with stuff they’ll need easy as telling 'em how to summon him for further assistance – and they of course do wind up needing him, and he of course comes through for the rescue. He doesn’t fail to recognize much of anything; instead, after telling 'em all about the Barrow-wights before supper, Tom turns the after-dinner conversation to his guests: _“He appeared to know much about them and all their families, and indeed to know much of all the history and doings of the Shire down from days hardly remembered among the hobbits themselves.”_ (And, after the rescue and the equipping, he gives 'em the pedigree of those gleaming weapons: _“these blades were forged many years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.”_ He then goes on to say rather a lot of sensible things about the Black Riders; it’s as if the dude knows every player in the game, y’know?) [/QUOTE] Ask me to sum the guy up in one word and I’d reluctantly go with “sensible”. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/146 "2015-06-06T21:33:28Z")
Return to Eagles hijack, just one more time, for fun. I happened across [this](http://www.tickld.com/x/this-guy-just-changed-the-way-we-see-lord-of-the-rings-mind-blown) explanation about why they didn’t use the Eagles, and it bears reading. “Fly, you fools!” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/147 "2015-06-07T02:35:58Z")
🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/148 "2015-06-07T06:47:34Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The Eagles are the direct servants of Manwë, who personally led the trouncing of Sauron’s boss, Morgoth. You seriously think Sauron’s **All-Seeing** Eye wasn’t spending time keeping track on what the Eagles were up to? Exactly. The hobbits could do it because the idea of the Hobbits being able to do it was so far from Sauron’s mind that even catching Frodo wearing it didn’t clue him in to the plan. People seem to forget that letting the Hobbits carry the ring was not just because they were the least affected by the ring. It was also because Sauron would not expect a lowly Hobbit to be able to do anything. Anyone strong would fight him for the ring (the vast majority of them losing), and anyone weak would eventually just hand it over. And he was technically correct. Frodo couldn’t do it. It was the ring that led to its own destruction, by making Gollum covet tut so much that he didn’t worry about staying alive. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/149 "2015-06-07T06:51:57Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The Scouring doesn’t work when Saruman has already been killed by a knife in the back from his minion. > > And…you know, maybe the long fall onto a spike. No, the Scouring doesn’t work because the Hobbits go home and everything is exactly the way it was before they left. It would have to be an actual deleted scene, one that doesn’t fit with the rest of the narrative as given. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/150 "2015-06-07T06:54:53Z")
Oh, and BTW, while I agree that the Eagles plan is unfeasible, any arguments based on knowledge that came after the Council of Elrond is irrelevant. The question isn’t “Would it have worked” but whether Elrond et al would have thought it would work. For example, they didn’t plan on Gandalf the White, either. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/151 "2015-06-07T07:41:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Oh good god, can we fucking knock it off with the Eagles hijack? Okay, sure, but how about this? Suppose the USS Enterprise is in orbit above Middle Earth. Could they beam the ring up from Rivendell, then beam it _down_ into the Cracks of Doom? And if they could, would they even need to? Couldn’t they just beam it into its component atoms, then shut off the transporter and leave it that way? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/152 "2015-06-07T08:48:49Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Okay, sure, but how about this? > > Suppose the USS Enterprise is in orbit above Middle Earth. Could they beam the ring up from Rivendell, then beam it _down_ into the Cracks of Doom? Did you seriously suggest subjecting William fucking Shatner to the temptation of the Ring of Power and seeing how that goes ? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/153 "2015-06-07T08:58:20Z")
Not – necessarily. Patrick Stewart also has a USS Enterprise. WITH a transporter room. Anyway, even if it’s Shatner, nobody has to handle the damn thing. Just put it in a crate of, I dunno, tribbles or something. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/154 "2015-06-07T10:42:33Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Not – necessarily. Patrick Stewart also has a USS Enterprise. WITH a transporter room. In tonight’s episode, the part of Sean Bean will be played by Colm Meaney. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/155 "2015-06-07T16:48:27Z")
So, you’re saying you want an exponentially-growing horde of Dark Fuzzy Lords? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/156 "2015-06-07T17:27:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, you’re saying you want an exponentially-growing horde of Dark Fuzzy Lords? You probably need something with fingers. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/157 "2015-06-07T17:41:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Did you seriously suggest subjecting William fucking Shatner to the temptation of the Ring of Power and seeing how that goes ? Actually Shatner’s ego and obsession with himself might be strong enough to block out the lure of the ring entirely. Sure if he took it , hewould have an ultimate power, but eventually he would go bald, and not care! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/158 "2015-06-07T18:12:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You probably need something with fingers. Counterpoint : the Ring expands and contracts to fit the finger of its wearer (or slip from it, depending on what it feels like doing right now). The Ring of Power is basically a sphincter. Tribbles are not entirely different from gerbils. (this conversation has taken a turn for the weird, hasn’t it ?) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/159 "2015-06-07T20:08:09Z")
Well, at least nobody’s talking about eagles any more. You’re welcome. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060/160 "2015-06-08T22:33:56Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Well, at least nobody’s talking about eagles any more. > > You’re welcome. 🙂 The Enterprise could just beam Frodo on an Eagle to the Crack of Doom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-bombadil-black-riders-and-the-old-forest/721060.md?page=9)