# Tom Brady: If NE win the Super Bowl, is he the best ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 14, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433 "2008-01-14T01:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/101 "2008-01-22T16:53:39Z")
Perhaps the solution is to say the greatest of his era. Then you’re comparing on a level playing field. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/102 "2008-01-22T17:03:54Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] [hijack] OTOH, Baugh is _still_ arguably the greatest punter of any era. Pretty amazing. [/hijack] [/QUOTE] Don’t be talking bad about Ray Guy. John Madden will sit on you. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/103 "2008-01-22T17:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Don’t be talking bad about Ray Guy. **John Madden will sit on you**. [/QUOTE] Actually, it’ll be Frank Caliendo. “BOOM!” ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/104 "2008-01-22T17:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Brady couldn’t throw without his line, and the Patriots couldn’t win without their defense. [/quote] He won the Superbowl WITHOUT great receivers OR a great defense, and his OL wasn’t particularly distinguished that year either considering they let Bledsoe get broken when he was running for his life against the Jets. (The 2001 Patriots had the 24th ranked defense. Remember them? That was when Brady led a game-winning Superbowl drive against the heavily-favored Rams.) > [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > His offensive line has been playing very well and together for multiple years, he’s got speedy, smart receivers, a servicable running game, and a good defense when he’s not on the field. Not only that, but he’s been under the same coach the entire time and is familiar with the system Again, he had none of these things when he won his first Superbowl. If we are being generous, I suppose we could call the 2001 Patriots running game “servicable”, but when you have the 13th ranked rushing offense despite having the 8th most number of attempts, I’d call it sub-par. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > I don’t know how you make any kind of comparison between Brady and Sammy Baugh. Or Unitas. Or especially Otto Graham, who gets to be in the conversation . If you want to say that distinguishing among the greatest is impossible and ultimately pointless - **I can get behind that.** I can’t, really. The passing game back in those days was quite primitive, so even though the disadvantage those guys have in this conversation is unfair, it’s still a handicap. Today’s passing game is far more sophisticated, and therefore today’s passers are better out of necessity. As a quick example, previous era standards of quality were 55% completion and interceptions didn’t really matter. In today’s game those standards would get you benched. The older guys did call their own plays, so they get a (major) bump for that, plus they didn’t wear skirts hiding behind the ref’s apron, but even with that they were still great passers in a primitive passing game. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/105 "2008-01-22T17:37:40Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] He won the Superbowl WITHOUT great receivers OR a great defense, and his OL wasn’t particularly distinguished that year either considering they let Bledsoe get broken when he was running for his life against the Jets. (The 2001 Patriots had the 24th ranked defense. Remember them? That was when Brady led a game-winning Superbowl drive against the heavily-favored Rams.)Again, he had none of these things when he won his first Superbowl. If we are being generous, I suppose we could call the 2001 Patriots running game “servicable”, but when you have the 13th ranked rushing offense despite having the 8th most number of attempts, I’d call it sub-par.I can’t, really. The passing game back in those days was quite primitive, so even though the disadvantage those guys have in this conversation is unfair, it’s still a handicap. Today’s passing game is far more sophisticated, and therefore today’s passers are better out of necessity. As a quick example, previous era standards of quality were 55% completion and interceptions didn’t really matter. In today’s game those standards would get you benched. The older guys did call their own plays, so they get a (major) bump for that, plus they didn’t wear skirts hiding behind the ref’s apron, but even with that they were still great passers in a primitive passing game. [/QUOTE] Brady’s first year doesn’t count because he was running under the Ewing Theory. That’s a statistical aberration that should be thrown out in any and all discourse on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/106 "2008-01-22T18:52:01Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Brady’s first year doesn’t count because he was running under the Ewing Theory. That’s a statistical aberration that should be thrown out in any and all discourse on the topic. [/QUOTE] That’s only “true” if they were a one-year wonder. They backed it up twice in the next three years, and while they had a better defense, running game and more experienced OL, they _still_ didn’t have any real weapons for Brady to throw to. It was during these same years that the Eagles also had a good defense, running game and OL, and they also had no receivers. Ask any Eagles fan why they didn’t win any Superbowls and they’ll immediately point to the lack of quality receivers. Didn’t seem to stop Brady, though. Again I would point out that Brady didn’t look particularly good last week and I truly hope he makes me eat my words by stinking up the joint 11 days from now. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/107 "2008-01-22T19:07:29Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] That’s only “true” if they were a one-year wonder. They backed it up twice in the next three years, and while they had a better defense, running game and more experienced OL, they _still_ didn’t have any real weapons for Brady to throw to. It was during these same years that the Eagles also had a good defense, running game and OL, and they also had no receivers. Ask any Eagles fan why they didn’t win any Superbowls and they’ll immediately point to the lack of quality receivers. Didn’t seem to stop Brady, though. Again I would point out that Brady didn’t look particularly good last week and I truly hope he makes me eat my words by stinking up the joint 11 days from now. [/QUOTE] Nah. That first year is under the iron-fisted dominion of the Ewing Theory. After that, it’s all skill. I hope the Patriots lose, and not because I dislike them. They’re playing such good football right now that if someone were to beat them, it could very well be one of the best games I’ve ever seen. So I want to see that. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/108 "2008-01-22T19:12:09Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] I hope the Patriots lose, and not because I dislike them. They’re playing such good football right now that if someone were to beat them, it could very well be one of the best games I’ve ever seen. So I want to see that. [/QUOTE] Heh. Me, I’d rather see them _almost_ lose in a hard-fought game but pull it out in a fourth-quarter thriller as they have in previous games this year. Now, _that_ would be a great game. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/109 "2008-01-22T19:39:45Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I can’t, really. The passing game back in those days was quite primitive, so even though the disadvantage those guys have in this conversation is unfair, it’s still a handicap. Today’s passing game is far more sophisticated, and therefore today’s passers are better out of necessity. As a quick example, previous era standards of quality were 55% completion and interceptions didn’t really matter. In today’s game those standards would get you benched. [/quote] Well, OK - I’m playing Devil’s Advocate here more than arguing my own position, because if you put a gun to my head and asked me, I’d say Brady’s the greatest QB of all time. But still… Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that what constitutes a “great” quarterback is fixed and immutable. There’s absolutely no question that Brady is a better _passer_ than Otto Graham was. If you dropped Otto Graham, exactly as he was then, into Brady’s spot on the Patriots, there’s no way Graham would be as successful. But the definition of a quarterback’s role was so entirely different then. Calling your own plays. Far less elaborate passing games, and de-emphasized passing games. Getting hit way more often, and having to run more as a regular part of the offense. Drop Brady, exactly as he is now, onto the Cleveland Browns in 1951 and he’d be just as lost as Graham would be on the Patriots in 2007. I think the greatness of a player is measured by judging how well that player performs in his role as it’s defined in his era. Is Tom Brady as good at doing what’s expected of a QB in 2007 as Otto Graham was at doing what was expected of a QB in 1951? I’m not sure there’s a particularly definitive way to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/110 "2008-01-22T19:59:16Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Heh. Me, I’d rather see them _almost_ lose in a hard-fought game but pull it out in a fourth-quarter thriller as they have in previous games this year. Now, _that_ would be a great game. [/QUOTE] Well, it could be a great game. It’d now have to surpass that Ravens game, which was a pretty sweet-ass game if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/111 "2008-01-22T20:36:59Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that what constitutes a “great” quarterback is fixed and immutable. There’s absolutely no question that Brady is a better _passer_ than Otto Graham was. If you dropped Otto Graham, exactly as he was then, into Brady’s spot on the Patriots, there’s no way Graham would be as successful. […] Drop Brady, exactly as he is now, onto the Cleveland Browns in 1951 and he’d be just as lost as Graham would be on the Patriots in 2007. I think the greatness of a player is measured by judging how well that player performs in his role as it’s defined in his era. Is Tom Brady as good at doing what’s expected of a QB in 2007 as Otto Graham was at doing what was expected of a QB in 1951? I’m not sure there’s a particularly definitive way to tell. [/QUOTE] I disagree with the second paragraph, because that leaves the door open for a game-manager to be better than Dan Marino, which would be pretty silly. (If he was the bestest game manager ever! hehheh.) As for the first part, I don’t give “he would have…” arguments much weight. If I did, I’d have to put Ricky Williams into the greatest RB of all time conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/112 "2008-01-22T22:12:59Z")
[QUOTE=Ellis Dee] I disagree with the second paragraph, because that leaves the door open for a game-manager to be better than Dan Marino, which would be pretty silly. (If he was the bestest game manager ever! hehheh.) As for the first part, I don’t give “he would have…” arguments much weight. If I did, I’d have to put Ricky Williams into the greatest RB of all time conversation. [/QUOTE] You misspelled “Bo Jackson”. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/113 "2008-01-22T22:23:25Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] You misspelled “Bo Jackson”. [/QUOTE] You mean the name that’s pronounced “Gale Sayers?” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/114 "2008-01-22T22:49:42Z")
Of course, even the ball Otto Graham threw wasn’t the same as the one Tom Brady throws: [According to this 2001 Popular Mechanics article](http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/sports/1283226.html?page=2) : > [@](#): > > In 1955, Wilson (Sporting Goods Co.) developed the TD football, which featured a new Tanned-in-Tack material, also known as Grip-Tite. This material has a tacky feel that makes the ball easier to grip, especially when wet. Could beautiful Tom play without a face mask, as Graham did for most of his career? (An injury to Graham caused Paul Brown to invent the first crude facemask, in fact.) Could he throw the slicker ball they used back then as well as Graham could? I don’t know, and nobody else does either. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/115 "2008-01-23T00:38:21Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] You mean the name that’s pronounced “Gale Sayers?” 🙂 [/QUOTE] No, that’s “Christian Okoye”. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/116 "2008-01-23T02:37:54Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Brady’s first year doesn’t count because he was running under the Ewing Theory. That’s a statistical aberration that should be thrown out in any and all discourse on the topic. [/QUOTE] Please elaborate. What the fuck is the Ewing theory? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/117 "2008-01-23T02:41:37Z")
[QUOTE=Atomicktom] Please elaborate. What the fuck is the Ewing theory? [/QUOTE] > **[ESPN.com - Ewing Theory 101](https://www.espn.com/espn/print?id=1193711)** Simmons. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/118 "2008-01-23T02:48:18Z")
> **[ESPN.com - Ewing Theory 101](https://www.espn.com/espn/print?id=1193711)** > [@](#): > > The theory was created in the mid-'90s by Dave Cirilli, a friend of mine who was convinced that Patrick Ewing’s teams (both at Georgetown and with New York) inexplicably played better when Ewing was either injured or missing extended stretches because of foul trouble. > > Curious to see if this phenomenon applied to other stars/teams, Dave noticed people were pencilling in the '94-'95 UConn Huskies for a .500 season because “superstar” Donyell Marshall had departed for the NBA. Dave knew better; a lifelong UConn fan, he thought the Huskies relied too much on Marshall the previous season and could survive without him. Like Ali predicting the first Liston knockout, Dave told friends the Huskies would thrive in Marshall’s absence – and that’s exactly what happened. By midseason, UConn was ranked No. 1 in the country for the first time in school history; the Ewing Theory had been hatched. > > Dave introduced me to the Ewing Theory three years ago, and we’ve been tinkering with it like Voltaire and Thoreau ever since. Eventually, we decided that two crucial elements needed to be in place for any situation to qualify for “Ewing” status: > > A star athlete receives an inordinate amount of media attention and fan interest, and yet his teams never win anything substantial with him (other than maybe some early-round playoff series). > > That same athlete leaves his team (either by injury, trade, graduation, free agency or retirement) – and both the media and fans immediately write off the team for the following season. > > When those elements collide, you have the Ewing Theory. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/119 "2008-01-23T02:59:03Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] No, that’s “Christian Okoye”. [/QUOTE] B-a-r-r-y S-a-n-d-e-r-s ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433/120 "2008-01-23T03:00:17Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] No, that’s “Christian Okoye”. [/QUOTE] No, it’s pronounced “Herschel Walker.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tom-brady-if-ne-win-the-super-bowl-is-he-the-best-ever/433433.md?page=7)