Tom Brady: If NE win the Super Bowl, is he the best ever?

You keep saying this like it’s a fact of some sort. Like it has any quantifiable value. Not to mention that Jerry Rice and a litany of other guys might disagree, strongly.

Name one other elite running back who’s team was as consistently mediocre as the Lions. Funny how this is never acknowledged, and when it is it’s written off. Also, did Barry ever catch a pass? I can’t seem to recall.

Contrive as many definitions as you want, “pure runner” or “most feared”, he was a talented and athletic and ultimately one-dimensional running back who never won anything. Jim Brown was the last one dimensional back to actually win consistently, nowadays a guy like that is a handicap as often as he’s an asset. The GOAT simply can’t take things off the table.

And you keep calling him unstoppable…um, half his carries were for 2 yards or less! That’s eminently stoppable.

Are you serious? Barry caught a lot of passes. Probably as many as most running backs, except for ones in a west coast offense specifically designed for it like Faulk and Roger Craig

O.J. Simpson and Eric Dickerson are at least in the same ballpark.

It’s acknowledged, but it isn’t blamed on Barry. Barry didn’t call the plays, couldn’t block for himself, and didn’t play defense.

35 catches a year, on average, for ten years. What elite running back, other than Roger Craig or Thurman Thomas, was substantially more productive as a receiver?

ETA: How could I forget about Craig? :smack:

Craig was the last running back to lead the league in receptions, for what it’s worth.

I wouldn’t call him totally one dimensional - he has 2500 career receiving yards with a 9.5 yard per reception (great for an RB) average. Not Marshall Faulk, but I’m guessing good numbers for a pre-west coast RB.

You (and others) have said this a bunch of times, without really going into detail, and I got really curious. Is this a fair criticism of Barry Sanders? So I looked into it.

Barry Sanders was the leading rusher for the Lions for 10 years (1989-1998).

So, for that 10 year period:
Total Record / Winning PCT: 78-82 (.488)
Seasons Above .500: 5
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 3
Playoff Seasons: 5

For the 10 years before he arrived:
Total Record / Winning PCT: 56-95-1 (.371)
Seasons Above .500: 2
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 0
Playoff Seasons: 2

For the 9 years after he retired:
Total Record / Winning PCT: 48-96 (.333)
Seasons Above .500: 1
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 0
Playoff Seasons: 1

So the first thing we can say for certain is that Barry Sanders certainly helped his team win. The fact that Detroit was relatively mediocre during his time there masks the fact that without him, they aspired to mediocrity. And they did pull off a few 10+ win seasons during that period, which by Lions standards was huge. I submit that the enormous difference in winning percentage between the Lions with Sanders and the Lions without Sanders stands as evidence against your central point on its own. Nonetheless:

Orenthal James Simpson, nine years with the Buffalo Bills
Total Record / Winning PCT: 43-81 (.347)
Seasons Above .500: 2
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 0
Playoff Seasons: 1

Eric Dickerson, counting 10 years with the Rams, Colts, and Raiders
Total Record / Winning PCT: 81-78-1 (.509)
Seasons Above .500: 6
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 4
Playoff Seasons: 5

Earl Campbell, eight years with the Oilers and Saints
Total Record / Winning PCT: 54-67 (.446)
Seasons Above .500: 3
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 3
Playoff Seasons: 3

Gayle Sayers, 5 (meaningful) years with the Chicago Bears
Total Record / Winning PCT: 29-38-3 (.433)
Seasons Above .500: 2
Seasons Above 10 Wins: 0
Playoff Seasons: 0

So the answer to the challenge: “Name one other elite running back who’s team was as consistently mediocre as the Lions,” is Gayle Sayers, Earl Campbell, O.J. Simpson, and Eric Dickerson. Though of course, that’s hardly fair: Sayers, Campbell, and Simpson generally played on much more mediocre teams that Sanders.

Didn’t they pull Barry Sanders off the field in goal line situations?

In some situations. That’s not completely unorthodox.

Many RBs get pulled off the field in goalline situations. And negative yards are really more of a reflection of the line not the RB. It’s not like he was running backwards on purpose. He was running backwards because people were in the backfield trying to tackle him as soon as he got the ball! I guarantee you if there was “a hole that a high school kid could have gone through” he would have hit it.

Oh and storyteller0910 nice job doing that legwork.

I don’t think Barry’s getting enough credit here. It’s funny how perception works; I always thought that one of his greatest gifts was getting through a hole, and it was a talent that was largely wasted.

Here’s what I think: pull up a Barry Sanders highlight reel. Pause it before the first run; notice the 9 men within 3 yards of the line of scrimmage. Then play the tape. The long runs will be divided into two kinds of runs – the ones where he takes the handoff and comes to a full two-footed stop almost immediately, freezes a defender or two in the backfield, and then finds daylight, and then the ones where he gets a seam and just fucking runs into the end zone without anybody near him. They’ll be divided about 80/20 in favor of the former.

Now, given the number of runs he had where he’s flatfooting defensive linemen in the backfield, what do you figure is the more likely explanation for all the negative yards and short runs: that he was missing holes and dancing for no reason, or that sometimes he didn’t make those unblocked defensive ends miss (or made them miss and got tackled by the linebacker or the safety)?

I know that sounds really simplistic and rudimentary, but seriously – how can you take a career of plays where there were clearly defenders in the backfield immediately, and not come to the conclusion that, you know, he may have danced a lot, and almost certainly sometimes he did it too much, but jesus christ did he have to work hard for his yards? How could you not think that he would have had even better numbers than Emmitt Smith if he was in Emmitt Smith’s position? Obviously we’re just not going to know, but how can you hold the negative yards against Barry Sanders when he so obviously knew HOW to hit a hole? Just how stupid was he, if he was very often not getting a hole to run through (and he wasn’t), and yet when he did get a hole, he ignored it? It’s just an impossible comparison, but I don’t think it’s really fair to say that he definitely wasn’t as good as X, Y, or Z (except Jim Brown).

And, to bring it back to the topic, that’s kind of what I think about Brady. He certainly can’t be excluded from the greatest ever conversation, because what has he done to eliminate himself? But seriously, who the fuck knows how good the rest of the Patriots are, or how good his receivers are without him, or how good he’d be on another team, or how good another quarterback would be on his team? You can’t subject them to double-blind studies. It’s not anything like baseball, where you can isolate, to at least some reasonable extent, a player’s performance from his surroundings. When you’re comparing football players, the quarterback is the offensive line is the defense is the coaching. What would Joe Montana’s 2000-era Patriots have looked like? What would Tom Brady’s 90s-era Packers have achieved? Who the F knows, right? But there’s certainly nothing in Brady’s career that disqualifies his claim to the greatest. I think that’s the fairest thing you can say.

Which isn’t to say you can never compare anybody to anybody else, obviously, and arguing about it is sort of what we do, but I feel like there’s a lot of attempts in this thread to boil down a comparison between players to a factor, or a set of factors, and say that this fact or that number or this theme categorically excludes somebody from the conversation, when in reality we’re all just deciding who looks better to us and finding evidence to back it up. At a certain level of fine-toothedness, you’re just making shit up.

That was a really boring post.

So what you’re saying is that, were you the Lions GM in the Barry Sanders era, you would have benched him and put in another – any other – RB, because Barry was a liability? Don’t factor in ticket sales or fan outrage or anything like that. Just give it to me straight. With winning the sole concern, you would have benched Barry and put in the #2 back, whoever that was?

In 1993 I might’ve put in Derrick Moore, who averaged the same 4.6 YPA as Barry. How did that happen if the OL was so shitty? Was Derrick Moore as much of an ankle-breaker as Barry?

Ron Rivers seems to have put up a respectable 4.5 average in 1996, followed by an impressive 5.7 in 1997 and 5.4 in 1998.

Rivers’ career average in Detroit was 4.3. So unless he’s a great back, the assertion that the Lions OL was total crap is greatly exagerated.

You’re… kidding, right? I mean, Ron Rivers had nineteen carries in 1996. You’re not actually… I mean… you’re kidding, right?

I’m going to be really annoying and make multiple replies because I want to replay to each response separately, apologies in advance.

I see Sanders caught a few more balls than I thought upon looking at the stats, but I still stand by the one-dimensional comment. He did play in a Run and Shoot system which meant a fair number of balls thrown his way, but Barry wasn’t a particularly reliable receiver (or pass blocker). This perception is reinforced by the fact that he was often pulled from the field on 3rd down and goal line situations. The combination of his tendency to get stopped in the backfield and inability to move the pile, coupled with average hands and blitz pick-ups made him a liability in those situations. An GOAT candidate is the guy you HAVE to have on the field in those critical moments. It’s what made LDT, Faulk, Emmitt and Payton so dangerous and their teams so efficient.

I think this is a very telling post. I would group Sanders right in this group of running backs. They are part of a very select group of backs who are just one short tier down from the very best of all time. These guys are all terrific comparisons in the way they played and the success they had, and the two are probably connected. Electrifying to watch and slightly overrated because of it. I’m not sure too many people (non-homers at least) are going to make a case for any of those guys as the GOAT, do you?

It’s common and prudent, it happened to Tiki all the time as any fantasy guy remembers, and there’s nothing wrong with it. However, for me, the GOAT has to be able to break a guys ankles in the backfield and move the pile or catch a swing pass for a TD.

Back to that Barry as a receiver thing, the Lions were really good at running the screen play. It played right into Barry’s strength by putting him in space to improvise and it utilized their zone blocking scheme. I’d wager a huge proportion of those receptions were screens. It’s a very go talent to have, but its a different skill than what Payton, LDT, Craig and Faulk did with their ability to split wide and to run precise routes and catch the ball downfield.

I’m seeing the same thing as you are, and I see it as a flaw. A running back should never come to a complete, two footed stop on a running play. Barry did it all the time, and that’s why he got dropped for so many losses. It’s at least as much to blame as the blocking. More efficient backs take plays with defenders in the backfield and turn them into 0 to 1 yard gains instead of 4 yard losses, thereby preserving drives.

It’s also not necessarily indicative of the line play when defenders are in the backfield. This was the scouting report on Barry, if you penetrate you can stop him so defenses sold out to run blitz and abandoned gap discipline to do so. A more balanced back would kill teams who did this by making decisive moves upfield or running effective play action.

The point is that the other backs on the team ran successfully when they had the chance. If the argument is that “Barry had no blocking, to gain yards with that line is an incomparable feat!” then it goes a long way towards pointing out that Barry might not have been that much of a one-man show if his backups were equally successful when he was off the field.

No, Ron “Running” Rivers was usually the one that came in after Barry broke off a huge run and didn’t make it to the end zone.

Barry was probably under utilized as a receiver, which is fine because he was such a good runner.