The small league is a reasonable objection (although I might counter that Jordan didn’t start winning until the league was diluted enough for him to win with Pippen). Other arguments (not all made by you) just aren’t convincing with me. Russell was a winner at every level; the Celtics didn’t win championships until he arrived and stopped when he left. He won 5 MVPs (same as Jordan) back when the players voted. His teammates considered him the best player.
I’m not saying he’s unarguably the best (I might put LBJ first) but he should be in the discussion and anybody who dismisses him out of hand doesn’t understand basketball.
I watched The Last Dance (excellent Netflix documentary series) and the things people were saying about playing against Michael Jordan were scary. If you gave him a reason to be mad at you, even inadvertently, he would go out of his way to destroy you on the court. He could do it at will. All it took was the proper motivation and he could shut you down and embarrass you. I’ve never heard that about any other athlete. Even playing against other people who were the best basketball players in the world, he had the ability to single-handedly dominate anyone.
For football, I would put Don Hutson up there, some of his records still stand 50+ years later. Of course, a) The game has changed*, and b) Some of those records were during WWII when many good opponents were overseas.
Brian
like the record for triples in baseball is likely never to be broken
That’s a ridiculous statement, IMO. Jim Brown and Jerry Rice are most definitely in the conversation of best football player of all time. Not to mention defensive players Lawrence Taylor or Joe Green or Dick Butkis.
For my money the best NFL player ever is Jerry Rice.
I think you’re right, and that a big piece of it is that dominance in some sports means something entirely different than it does in others.
I mean, the best hockey, basketball and pitchers in baseball can singlehandedly change the course of a game solely through their own individual play. Someone like a Jordan, Gretzky or a Pedro Martinez can dominate an individual game more or less independent of their teammates.
Football doesn’t work that way; Brady is by far the best quarterback in history, but he can’t do it by himself.
Objectively, it is the case that neither could Gretzky, Jordan or Pedro. Their teams lost many games, and they didn’t win the championship far more often than they did. Early in his career Jordan was clearly the best basketball player in the world LONG before the Bulls were a championship level team; they just didn’t have a good enough supporting cast. In 1986-1987 Jordan sored 37.1 PPG and had become a really, really good defensive player; the Bulls went 40-42. Pedro always lost if his hitters scored no runs, and usually lost if they only scored one or two. Soccer? No soccer player can completely dominate the game in game after game if his team blows; the sport doesn’t work like that. A team sport that would allow true one player domination is broken, or the player isn’t playing in the correct level of competition. Sports aren’t supposed to be like Quidditch.
Maybe in one game a player can totally dominate (and in his second-highest scoring game ever, Jordan dropped 64… and the Bulls lost) but sports are about a grind. You need a supporting cast.
Evidently Larry Bird wasn’t one of the people Magic could dominate at will. Larry’s career, while shorter, ended with Bird scoring more points overall. AFAIK they remained friends.
Hell, Brady isn’t, without question, the best QB of all time. Peyton Manning has a higher average approximate value, and several people have higher QB ratings for their careers. Rodgers with a pretty good sample size to back it up.
If you asked 1,000 people to pick an all time NBA team, Jordan is starting on 990 of them. You couldn’t say the same about Brady. Or Jim Brown. Jerry Rice, probably.
Brady has played a career ten percent longer, and the difference in average approxiamte value is miniscule. Brady has a higher QB rating. No overall value stat shows any statistically significant difference between the two.
Brady is slightly better in the playoffs, in a LOT more playoff games.
Yep and further evidence is how the England cricket team devised an entire new strategy never used before for their series against Australia just to stop Bradman.
That strategy was to have the fast bowlers deliberately bowl balls aimed at the body to intimidate, force a mistake, and physically hurt the Australian batsmen. And they packed fielders on the leg side (the left hand side of a right handed batsman and the right hand side of a left handed batsman) where catches would most likely be taken as a result of the batsman being unable to get out of the way of a dangerous ball.
In those days there were no protective gear besides leg pads which were no good for balls aimed at the arms, heart, neck and head. If they could intimidate Bradman and knock off 20-30 runs each time he came to bat compared to his career average then knocking off runs from everyone else who averaged well below would be easy. And victory would be assured. And it was. Bradman still had an excellent series finishing with the second highest average (56) but 56 was a long way down from his standard and only one other Australian batsman averaged above 40.
Hardly any footage exists but this short package tells the story
About 20 years ago Stats Inc would publish books with various essays/conversations about baseball. In it one statistician remarked how difficult it was to devise a system that rated Michael Jordan the best player in the NBA…as he was.
Let’s hear it for the only man able to hold Jordan under 20 points per game: Dean Smith.
His career has been about a hundred games longer. Rodgers is four seasons away, at least, from matching Brady, and that’s assuming he wins a few more championships.
Lord knows, I’m not an NBA fan, but just to throw out there…
Michael Jordan dominated the NBA. The NBA changed their rules because of Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt Chamberlain has had a bigger overall effect on the game than Michael Jordan.
Back to football. The greatest running back was Walter Payton. He would run past you, over you, around you. He could catch (I think he still holds the Bears receiving record (talk about “tallest midget”)), he still has the best QB rating in Bears history. He was the total package. And, in a 13 year career at a bruising position, he missed exactly 1 game. That being said, he broke the rushing record of James Brown, who played a shorter career during seasons with fewer games. That sounds like a damned good reason for Brown to be in the conversation.
And, you know what ALL of these players have in common? They’re ALL known for practicing harder than anyone else.
George Mikan caused the NBA to create the goaltending rule, widen the foul lane, and institute the shot clock. In many ways he created the position of big man that Chamberlain took even further.
