# Tomlin fined $100K
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524
**Category:** The Game Room
**Created:** [December 4, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524 "2013-12-04T23:07:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/61 "2013-12-06T19:28:33Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#):
>
> Of course it seems pointless to you. It doesn’t help your point.
It seems pointless to me because it’s a quibble.
> [@](#):
>
> Whether or not he scored, was tacked on the 5, fumbled, tripped on the turf, it doesn’t matter. The game was far from over at that point.
No one has said otherwise. By the way, your statement “it didn’t affect the outcome” is meaningless if the game was not over regardless of whether Jones scored or not.
> [@](#):
>
> No one is arguing that the Ravens came away from the exchange with 4 less points. But you have no idea how the rest of the game would have been played out.
You’re just wrong to say we have _no_ idea. The game was almost 75% over when this play occurred. We can’t say for sure what would have happened, but we can absolutely make informed statements about likelihoods. The play appeared to take four points away from Baltimore, meaning the Steelers were trailing by a significantly smaller amount after that drive. I’m sure we can agree that being down by 13 is worse than being down by 9. There are even websites that calculate teams’ chances of winning at various points in the game. I would be very interested to see what they say about the Steelers’ odds at that juncture.
> [@](#):
>
> The Ravens could have scored the touchdown AND taken more time off the clock, thereby making the Steelers chances to win the game less likely. So by your logic, Tomlin would have actually HELPED the Ravens because he would have decreased his own teams chances of winning. You can’t ignore this part of the equation.
It wouldn’t have made that much of a difference. The drive that produced that field goal lasted 2:37, and it could have gone a few minutes longer than turned into a TD anyway. That would have been bad for the Steelers, but then again, having the other team start on your 27 is a lot better than having the other team score a TD right away. In one case, you have a chance to stop them from scoring a TD. In the other, you have essentially no chance of doing that.
> [@](#):
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> Tomlin also had no way to know that a 15 yard penalty would not have been assessed on him, either after Jones was tackled or on the ensuing kickoff.
It looks like he felt it was unlikely.
> [@](#):
>
> Are you saying Tomlin changed the outcome of “the play” or “the game”? They are two different things.
By changing the outcome of the play, he changed the outcome of the game. He took an almost sure touchdown off the board.
> [@](#):
>
> A better chance to win? The Ravens won. You can’t get better than that.
I think you are ignoring the existence of probability _and_ the fact that things change as the game progresses. You can’t say ‘the game was not over even if Jones had scored’ and ‘the Ravens won anyway’ as part of the same argument. The first statement notes that we’re dealing in probabilities and circumstances change over time; the other starts at the end of the game and works backward. That’s not how the game actually unfolds.
Bottom line: yes, it was not a 100% guarantee that Jones was going to score. It was overwhelmingly likely and there is no reason to assume that anything else was going to happen. I’m willing to assume that that means “he was going to score.” After all Mike Tomlin didn’t think his players were going to catch the guy without a little help.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/62 "2013-12-06T19:35:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I don’t think there’s a delay. [Some players say they look at the Jumbotrons during the action.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/feature/featureVideo?page=jumbotron)
That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a delay. Players mostly use it during a live play to avoid breaking stride in order to look behind them. You can tell positions, but I sincerely doubt any player would think of it as a substitute for actually looking at a play.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/63 "2013-12-06T19:38:25Z")
If the Jumbotron was delayed by several seconds, I don’t think it would be useful for that purpose.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/64 "2013-12-06T19:51:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> I’m inclined to think he didn’t do it on purpose. Bill Belichick and John Harbaugh are [bot](http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/104987/harbaugh-tomlins-misstep-not-intentional)h on [record](http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24305160/bill-belichick-on-mike-tomlin-that-could-easily-happen-to-any-of-us) as [saying](http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2013/11/belichick_1.html) losing your place on the field the way Tomlin did happens. To quote the article on Belichick’s thoughts:
>
> And Harbaugh’s:
>
> I don’t think either of them were going out of their way to be extra gracious. Seeing as both men have been in that position, had that perspective, and know Mike Tomlin personally, I think they have far more insight to the situation than we do. I just doing buy that Tomlin, a well respected coach with a good amount of job security, would resort to such a risky crime of opportunity given the high likelihood of failure, injury, and penalty.
>
> Yes, Tomlin’s defense is mitigated somewhat by the apparent step he takes towards the field, but I think that is a somewhat unfair critique given it’s hard to impute ill will to a step taken during an event happening that quickly. I also doubt he would think he could time that well enough to avoid contact with the ref, Jones, or his players, or that he would risk getting clobbered by a guy running at full speed.
According to the rules he was not even supposed to be there. It is illegal to be in the white zone (as it is only for immediate loading and unloading). If you are already violating the rules by being to close too the field, you lose all rights of “Oooops!” as an excuse when you are one step beyond that.
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### Author:  [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/65 "2013-12-06T19:53:43Z")
After thinking it over some more, in my totally unbiased opinion, I think the Steelers should lose their draft picks for the next 8 years.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/66 "2013-12-06T19:56:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> According to the rules he was not even supposed to be there. It is illegal to be in the white zone (as it is only for immediate loading and unloading).
Listen, **Saint Cad** , don’t start up with your white zone shit again.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/67 "2013-12-06T19:56:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> If the Jumbotron was delayed by several seconds, I don’t think it would be useful for that purpose.
You’re right. Now please tell me where I said it was delayed “several seconds”? The point is that given the short reaction time he had, I don’t thinking looking at the jumbotron is reliable enough.
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/68 "2013-12-06T20:00:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Listen, **Saint Cad** , don’t start up with your white zone shit again.
The white zone is for loading and unloading only.
The baby is yours!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/69 "2013-12-06T20:02:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> You’re right. Now please tell me where I said it was delayed “several seconds”? The point is that given the short reaction time he had, I don’t thinking looking at the jumbotron is reliable enough.
I had noticed the “3 seconds” comment in your post. On review I see that you were talking about the time that had elapsed in the video. Still, I think there was probably enough time for Tomlin to panic and decide to engage in a little gamesmanship.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/70 "2013-12-06T20:05:19Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> According to the rules he was not even supposed to be there. It is illegal to be in the white zone (as it is only for immediate loading and unloading). If you are already violating the rules by being to close too the field, you lose all rights of “Oooops!” as an excuse when you are one step beyond that.
If you want to take that stance, that’s fine, but if the NFL wants to punish people for that, they need to do it consistently.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/71 "2013-12-06T20:07:07Z")
I think we’re all agreed that the NFL has always ignored that rule - the NBA is the same way with its rules on the subject - and that that needs to change.
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/72 "2013-12-06T20:12:16Z")
One thing I think about: this guy is no dummy. To make it to head coach status in the NF freakin L, you have to be near the top of your game. Even if you’re the 32nd ranked coach in the whole NFL, you still have a football mind that got you that far.
Can a football smart HEAD coach zone out during an important, maybe even pivotal, play during an important conf game with a major rival? Seriously, I don’t think so. YMMV. I think he saw a split second opportunity, thought he could get away with, and did the deed. All decided in a few seconds.
Fine him. Suspend him. He deserves it.
As for the draft picks, I have a problem with that. It was him, not a group of players or coaches or assistants.
ymmv big time, this is imho
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/73 "2013-12-06T20:12:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I had noticed the “3 seconds” comment in your post. On review I see that you were talking about the time that had elapsed in the video. Still, I think there was probably enough time for Tomlin to panic and decide to engage in a little gamesmanship.
That’s a funny apology. 😉
But seriously, is “probably” strong enough call the guy a liar, and imply the two other NFL coaches who have been in similar situations, and know Tomlinson personally, are seeing the situation incorrectly?
Again, I am not saying it was impossible to pull off. I am saying that after taking into account his character, his vehement and seemingly sincere denial, the circumstances, the opinions of other coaches, and the sheer stupidity of trying to get away with something like that, I have to think it was more than likely accidental.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/74 "2013-12-06T20:19:02Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> But seriously, is “probably” strong enough call the guy a liar, and imply the two other NFL coaches who have been in similar situations, and know Tomlinson personally, are seeing the situation incorrectly?
I can accept that you can lose track of your position while watching the Jumbotron. I don’t have the best sense of direction myself. But Belichick and Harbaugh never managed to interfere with a play and I’m finding it hard to believe Tomlin got all the way out there by accident.
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/75 "2013-12-06T20:21:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I can accept that you can lose track of your position while watching the Jumbotron. I don’t have the best sense of direction myself. But Belichick and Harbaugh never managed to interfere with a play and I’m finding it hard to believe Tomlin got all the way out there by accident.
Esp during _that_ play. It’s not like he didn’t know what was going on.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/76 "2013-12-06T20:21:47Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#):
>
> One thing I think about: this guy is no dummy. To make it to head coach status in the NF freakin L, you have to be near the top of your game. Even if you’re the 32nd ranked coach in the whole NFL, you still have a football mind that got you that far.
>
> Can a football smart HEAD coach zone out during an important, maybe even pivotal, play during an important conf game with a major rival? Seriously, I don’t think so. YMMV. I think he saw a split second opportunity, thought he could get away with, and did the deed.
It has nothing to do with intelligence. Bill Belichick, probably the best coach in the NFL, has been hit on the sidelines while coaching a game. Sean Payton’s knee was destroyed during a sideline collision. That’s in addition to countless others. They are not stupid people, nor is Tomlin. They just got in the way. It happens to lots of them in part because the game is insanely fast and unpredictable. To think Tomlin would intentionally get in the way and risk almost certain injury is just not that likely.
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### Author:  [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/77 "2013-12-06T20:29:48Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> It has nothing to do with intelligence. Bill Belichick, probably the best coach in the NFL, has been hit on the sidelines while coaching a game. Sean Payton’s knee was destroyed during a sideline collision. That’s in addition to countless others. They are not stupid people, nor is Tomlin. They just got in the way. It happens to lots of them in part because the game is insanely fast and unpredictable. To think Tomlin would intentionally get in the way and risk almost certain injury is just not that likely.
As I said: YMMV
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/78 "2013-12-06T20:30:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Listen, **Saint Cad** , don’t start up with your white zone shit again.
This one took me a second. This thought Marley the Mod had lost it and I didn’t know if I got a note or a warning.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/79 "2013-12-06T20:33:52Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> If you want to take that stance, that’s fine, but if the NFL wants to punish people for that, they need to do it consistently.
My point is if you are already too close to the field (by rule) then you cannot use the “it was an accident” for being TOO close to the field. Just like if you drive 10mph over the speed limit, you can’t say “oooooops” or “It was only 1 more mph.” when PoPo Joe flashes you for going 11 mph over.
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tomlin-fined-100k/675524/80 "2013-12-06T20:48:08Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> Look at the [video](http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24315174/video-new-angle-of-mike-tomlinjacoby-jones-interference). From the time Jones cuts towards the sideline near Tomlin (where Tomlin might think he has an opportunity to affect the play) to the point Tomlin jumps back to avoid contact is about 3 seconds. Do you really think he concocted this terrible plan in that time period AND was able to time this that perfectly while watching a delayed feed on a Jumbotron? Sure, it’s possible, but I see nothing in his behavior as head coach for the last however many years that suggests to me that that is in his character.
What interests me in that video is that one of the refs had to run AROUND Tomlin (away from the field), so the ref had to know he was too close to the field. Throw the fucking flag, ref!
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