# "Tommy Atkins" by Rudyard Kipling **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 30, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696 "2005-12-30T06:47:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/1 "2005-12-30T06:47:28Z")
I came across this today, and it seemed rather apropos. If nothing else, it’s a nice poem… * * * I WENT into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer, The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.” The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I: O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”; But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,— The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play, O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play. I went into a theatre as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn’t none for me; They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls, But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls! For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”; But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,— The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide, O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide. Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap; An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit. Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, 'ow’s yer soul?” But it’s “Thin red line of 'eroes” when the drums begin to roll,— The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll, O it’s “Thin red line of 'eroes” when the drums begin to roll. We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too, But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you; An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints, Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints; While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”, But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,— There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind, O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind. You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all: We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational. Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace. For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!” But it’s “Saviour of 'is country” when the guns begin to shoot; An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please; An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool—you bet that Tommy sees! ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/2 "2005-12-30T08:52:30Z")
Kipling is my favorite author of all time. Not a big fan of poetry but that was a nice acerbic piece ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/3 "2005-12-30T09:11:36Z")
Is this the origin of the title of James Jones’ book _The Thin Red Line_? ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/4 "2005-12-30T10:21:39Z")
[Yes.](http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/feature/139/) ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/5 "2005-12-30T10:57:19Z")
Robert Heinlein quoted this poem a couple of times in Starship Troopers, as well as several other Kipling poems related to soldiers. _The young recruit is silly, e’ thinks of suicide He’s lost his gutter devil an’ he ‘asn’t got is pride. But day by day they kicks him, which helps him on a bit Till he finds hisself one morning with a full an proper kit. Gettin’ shut o’ dirtiness, gettin’ shut o mess, Gettin’ shut of doing things “Rather more or less”_ ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/6 "2005-12-30T13:58:29Z")
The Kipling piece that I’ve always liked, and spouted to a befuddled jury every once in a while is (this is from memory , don’t hold me to it): _When your officer’s down And your sergeant looks white Remember it’s ruin to run from a fight, So take open order, spread out and sit tight And wait for support like a soldier_ There is a lot of imperialist balderdash and “white man’s burden” in Kipling but every once in a while he comes out with a gem. You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din. Look up his little verse on the death of his son – something like: _They say my boy died laughing at some jest. I wish I knew what it was now that jests are few._ I’m told that the boy, a junior officer in the Irish Guards, was last seen going to the rear with a wound that had all but torn off his face. His body was never identified. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/7 "2005-12-30T14:21:06Z")
_A woman is only a woman, But a good cigar is a smoke!_~~~From Kipling’s poem “The Betrothed” ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/8 "2005-12-30T14:49:34Z")
> [@Ice Wolf](#): > > [Yes.](http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/feature/139/) That was one of Jones’ reasons for the title as given on the title pages of the book. Jones quoted the verse containing “thin red line of 'eroes” and what he described as an “Old Midwestern Saying” “There’s only a thin red line between the sane and the mad.” ---
**Author:** ![marque\_elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71c47a/32.png) [@marque\_elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marque_elf)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/9 "2005-12-30T16:00:43Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > That was one of Jones’ reasons for the title as given on the title pages of the book. Jones quoted the verse containing “thin red line of 'eroes” and what he described as an “Old Midwestern Saying” > > “There’s only a thin red line between the sane and the mad.” The phrase "The thin red line’ may’ve first appeared in poetry with Kipling’s wonderful poem but it predates him by quite a bit. It first appeared in news stories about the Peninsular war that was fought in Spain, Portugal and France in the first decades of the 19th century. Napoleon’s marshalls almost always deployed their infantry in long columns anywhere from 5 to 10 files acrossw and literally hundreds of men deep. It was a terror weapon. Almost every infantry that tried to defend against these massive attacking columns would cromble and flee ine face of one of these attacks, especially if there were 10 or 12 of these columns on the march. Only the British ever withstood these attacks. They would deploy in a long thin line 2 or 3 rows deep. The first rank would kneel and the 2 lines behind them would stand. That way, even though their muskets had to be reloaded after every shot, there was always a row that could fire while the other rows reloaded. The column was terrifying but only the men in front could shoot so that even though they were outnumbered, the British had a superior rate of fire. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/10 "2005-12-30T16:21:53Z")
Showing some other things never change, either: _When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier._ ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/11 "2005-12-30T16:35:49Z")
While we are posting militant poetry … The Siege of Belgrade Alaric Alexander Watts An Austrian Army awfully arrayed, Boldly by battery besieged Belgrade. Cossack commanders cannonading come, Dealing destruction’s devastating doom. Every endeavor engineers easy, For fame, for fortune fighting - furious fray! Generals 'gainst generals grapple - gracious God! How honors Heaven heroic hardihood! Infuriate, indiscriminate in ill, Kindred kill kinsmen, kinsmen kindred kill. Labor low levels longest loftiest lines; Men march 'mid mounds 'mid moles, ‘mid murderous mines; Now noxious, noisy numbers nothing, naught Of outward obstacles, opposing ought; Poor patriots, partly purchased, partly pressed, Quite quaking, quickly “Quarter! Quarter!” quest. Reason returns, religious right rebounds, Suwarrow stops such sanguinary sounds. Truce to thee, Turkey! Triumph to thy train, Unwise, unjust, unmerciful Ukraine! Vanish, vain victory! Vanish victory vain! Why wish we warfare? Wherefore welcome were Xerxes, Ximenes, Xanthus, Xavier? Yield, yield, ye youths! Ye yeomen, yield your yell! Zeus’, Zapater’s Zoroaster’s zeal, Attracting all, arms against all ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/12 "2005-12-30T18:00:05Z")
Among Kipling’s best, IMHO, is [_The Mary Gloucester_](http://lockstockandbarrel.org/Poems/Kipling/mary_gloster.html). It’s long, and not well known. But quite a poem. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/13 "2005-12-30T18:10:24Z")
To correct some errors: **ElvisL1ves** and **Spavined Gelding** quoted _The Young British Soldier_. The origin of “the thin red line” comes from the battle of Balaklava during the Crimean War, when Colin Campbell’s 93rd (Argyll & Sutherland) Highlanders refused to break before a Russian cavalry charge. This act of bravery was witnessed by a newspaper reporter, W. H. Russell, who described the stand in his story as “a thin red streak tipped with a line of steel.” ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/14 "2005-12-30T18:10:36Z")
D’you like Kipling? Dunno, I never Kippled. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/15 "2005-12-30T18:13:24Z")
Oops. Missed one: The poem quoted by **Baker** is “The 'eathen.” All excellent selections. In my AP Euro classes, I use “The Young British Soldier,”" Tommy," and “Gunga Din” as essay prompts when we discuss Imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/16 "2005-12-30T18:14:23Z")
My Uni library has a complete, multivolume set of the works of Kipling. Good thing too, because the PC set wants to censor him to oblivion. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/17 "2005-12-31T00:06:50Z")
SPEAKIN’ in general, I ’ave tried ’em all— The ’appy roads that take you o’er the world. Speakin’ in general, I ’ave found them good For such as cannot use one bed too long, But must get ’ence, the same as I ’ave done, An’ go observin’ matters till they die. What do it matter where or ’ow we die, So long as we’ve our ’ealth to watch it all — The different ways that different things are done, An’ men an’ women lovin’ in this world — Takin’ our chances as they come along, An’ when they ain’t, pretendin’ they are good? In cash or credit—no, it aren’t no good; You ’ave to ’ave the ’abit or you’d die, Unless you lived your life but one day long, Nor didn’t prophesy nor fret at all, But drew your tucker some’ow from the world, An’ never bothered what you might ha’ done. But, Gawd, what things are they I ’aven’t done? I’ve turned my ’and to most, an’ turned it good, In various situations round the world— For ‘im that doth not work must surely die; But that’s no reason man should labour all ‘Is life on one same shift—life’s none so long. Therefore, from job to job I’ve moved along. Pay couldn’t ’old me when my time was done, For something in my ’ead upset me all, Till I ’ad dropped whatever ’twas for good, An’, out at sea, be’eld the dock-lights die, An’ met my mate—the wind that tramps the world! It’s like a book, I think, this bloomin’ world, Which you can read and care for just so long, But presently you feel that you will die Unless you get the page you’re readin’ done, An’ turn another—likely not so good; But what you’re after is to turn ’em all. Gawd bless this world! Whatever she ’ath done— Excep’ when awful long—I’ve found it good. So write, before I die, “’E liked it all!” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/18 "2006-01-02T06:05:04Z")
And let us not forget **"If"** If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you But make allowance for their doubting too, If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream–and not make dreams your master, If you can think–and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!” If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings–nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much, If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And–which is more–you’ll be a Man, my son! ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/19 "2006-01-02T06:22:25Z")
Oooh, you just beat me to the punch, **Elendil’s Heir** ; I was _just_ going to post that poem. I love the final stanza – one of the very, very few pieces of poetry I have memorized. Some great poems posted by everyone. **Paul** – the one you posted is particularly impressive, at least from a technical standpoint. Kind of reminds me of that book that was written without using any e’s. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696/20 "2006-01-02T09:36:37Z")
I’ve memorized most of this and it’s what I use when rocking all of my kids to sleep from the day they were born. THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE Now this is the Law of the Jungle–as old and as true as the sky; And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die. As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back– For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack. Wash daily from nose-tip to tail-tip; drink deeply, but never too deep; And remember the night is for hunting, and forget not the day is for sleep. The jackal may follow the Tiger, but, Cub, when thy whiskers are grown, Remember the Wolf is a hunter–go forth and get food of thine own. Keep peace with the Lords of the Jungle–the Tiger, the Panther, the Bear; And trouble not Hathi the Silent, and mock not the Boar in his lair. When Pack meets with Pack in the Jungle, and neither will go from the trail, Lie down till the leaders have spoken–it may be fair words shall prevail. When ye fight with a Wolf of the Pack, ye must fight him alone and afar, Lest others take part in the quarrel, and the Pack be diminished by war. The Lair of the Wolf is his refuge, and where he has made him his home, Not even the Head Wolf may enter, not even the Council may come. The Lair of the Wolf is his refuge, but where he has digged it too plain, The Council shall send him a message, and so he shall change it again. If ye kill before midnight, be silent, and wake not the woods with your bay, Lest ye frighten the deer from the crops, and the brothers go empty away. Ye may kill for yourselves, and your mates, and your cubs as they need, and ye can; But kill not for pleasure of killing, and SEVEN TIMES NEVER KILL MAN. If ye plunder his Kill from a weaker, devour not all in thy pride; Pack-Right is the right of the meanest; so leave him the head and the hide. The Kill of the Pack is the meat of the Pack. Ye must eat where it lies; And no one may carry away of that meat to his lair, or he dies. The Kill of the Wolf is the meat of the Wolf. He may do what he will, But, till he has given permission, the Pack may not eat of that Kill. Cub-Right is the right of the Yearling. From all of his Pack he may claim Full-gorge when the killer has eaten; and none may refuse him the same. Lair-Right is the right of the Mother. From all of her year she may claim One haunch of each kill for her litter, and none may deny her the same. Cave-Right is the right of the Father–to hunt by himself for his own. He is freed of all calls to the Pack; he is judged by the Council alone. Because of his age and his cunning, because of his gripe and his paw, In all that the Law leaveth open, the word of the Head Wolf is Law. Now these are the Laws of the Jungle, and many and mighty are they; But the head and the hoof of the Law and the haunch and the hump is–Obey! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-atkins-by-rudyard-kipling/337696.md?page=2)