# Tommy Franks accused of war crimes by Belgian politician **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299 "2003-05-14T23:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/1 "2003-05-14T23:30:44Z")
[Politics or justice?](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030514/ap_on_re_eu/war_crimes_franks_7) > [@](#): > > BRUSSELS, Belgium - A left-wing candidate in Belgium’s parliamentary elections lodged a war crimes complaint Wednesday against U.S. Gen. Tommy Franks, the commander of American forces in Iraq. > Lawyer Jan Fermon presented the complaint against Franks and a Marine officer he identified as Col. Brian P. McCoy to Belgium’s federal prosecutors’ office despite recent changes in the country’s war crimes law to prevent such charges against Americans… > …Fermon said the accusations against Franks focused on the bombing of civilian areas, indiscriminate shooting by U.S. troops when they entered Baghdad and the failure to stop looting. He charged McCoy with ordering troops to fire on ambulances… I haven’t heard of this case until now. The article is short on facts but long on accusations. Should this to be taken seriously by the US government? ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/2 "2003-05-15T00:27:42Z")
Anyone in Belgium can apparently have anyone in the world indicted for “war crimes” along political motives. It’s really silly, and takes the focus away from serious efforts to seek justice. If Tommy Franks really did do something (I am not stupid enough to think America does no wrong), the Hague or the UN would be looking into it seriously. Was there ever any tribunal for the very horrific crimes commited by the Belgians in the Congo? Some estimates of Congo deaths reach 6-10 million, rivaling the Nazi Holocaust. And since that musrule lasted until 1960, and continued with Belgian ‘mercenaries’ throughout the 1960’s, undoubtedly some of the culprits are still alive and well in Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/3 "2003-05-15T00:45:43Z")
This is a very funny joke. Since we don’t recognize the validity of their court system, they can charge anyone with anything and it will matter not a whit. Another irrelevant European country trying to act like they have some impact on the way the world goes around. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/4 "2003-05-15T01:27:56Z")
Um, he may have a basis with the looting of the museums. That should never have happened. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/5 "2003-05-15T01:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* > \*\*This is a very funny joke. Since we don’t recognize the validity of their court system, they can charge anyone with anything and it will matter not a whit. > > Another irrelevant European country trying to act like they have some impact on the way the world goes around. \*\* I agree that it’s a joke, but I don’t find it funny. Plenty of truly horrible things are taking place in the world. The news tonight reported on mass graves discovered in Iraq, where most of the corpses had been shot in the head, and some appeared to have been buried alive. Robert Mugabe is committing genocide in Zimbabwe. There are horrors in Sudan and other other countries. Yet, the Belgian court is being asked to look at a “war crime” of an American general not preventing some museum looting. I cannot understand the selective morality of the people bringing these charges. They are disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/6 "2003-05-15T01:48:34Z")
Having read the entire Yahoo story, it appears that a leftist crank (who appears to belong to one of those parties that tends to rank near the bottom of the polls) has filed a complaint to the Belgium court that the Belgium government (among others) regards as pointless. No reason for Franks to lose sleep. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/7 "2003-05-15T01:50:01Z")
I heard about this on NPR today. Apparently, this guy is some left-ish politician who is running for an upcoming election, and is evidently using the Belgian laws to score some political capital. Fuckin’ Dick-weasel. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/8 "2003-05-15T15:01:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Um, he may have a basis with the looting of the museums. That should never have happened. So what? Its not a war crime by any stretch of the imagination, and the US is under no requirement to care about foreign museums, nor act as law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/9 "2003-05-15T15:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* > \*\*This is a very funny joke. Since we don’t recognize the validity of their court system, they can charge anyone with anything and it will matter not a whit. > > Another irrelevant European country trying to act like they have some impact on the way the world goes around. \*\* Do you actually read anything, or do you have a generator just spit out bogey words? Some crank files a complaint under belgian law, (which will probably get thrown out at the first investigation ), but you think it’s the whole country? Or are the facts irrelevant too? ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/10 "2003-05-15T19:29:55Z")
Actually it does matter a whit. If franks and other were tried and convicted, they could be prosecuted and picked up if he ever went to Belgium or another country that recognized such a conviction. I don’t think it is funny either. Nor does the US government. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/11 "2003-05-15T19:41:33Z")
Well I imagine he would be prosecuted under international humanitarian law as cases brought under this code are now admissable in Belgian courts. The truth is though this case does look decidedly flimsy and I doubt he has any evidence for most of his allegations and it may well be thrown out long before it gets to the indightment stage. However if it does get past the indightment stage it could be a major headache for General Frank has he could be in danger of extradition in certain countries. Synocrelene, I think there has been a failure by the Belgium government to go after Belgiums who commited atrocities in the Belgium Congo, but IIRC one of the cases brought under the rules that allow cases of international law to be tried in Belgium courts was to do with the Belgium Congo (I think it was actually against the former dictator of the Central African Republic). ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/12 "2003-05-15T19:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > …Fermon said the accusations against Franks focused on the bombing of civilian areas, indiscriminate shooting by U.S. troops when they entered Baghdad and the failure to stop looting. He charged McCoy with ordering troops to fire on ambulances… Hmmmm did this leftist Yahoo forget to read the memo about the Fedayeen using ambulances, and civilian pickup trucks to set up ambushes for the US troops? Using the latest in smart bomb technology, I would hardly characterize US bombing as _indescriminate_. When you have Saddam loyalists shooting at US troops out of uniform, I would have to say that US troops was very restrained in their response protocol. Failure to stop looting is hardly a war crime. Property, no matter how valuable or irreplaceable, is secondary to the safety and lives of both the citizenry and the troops. This is exactly the very assinine and despicable action that prompted the US not to support the World Court. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/13 "2003-05-15T21:43:19Z")
This clown can go French himself. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/14 "2003-05-16T01:07:28Z")
The real issue is that Belgium has unilaterally arrogated super-national status for its courts. Even the USA has not quite done that. This is not some “international” court we’re talking about here. This is a Belgian court. Belgium law claims universal and unlimited jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![VanShore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f14d63/32.png) [@VanShore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanShore)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/15 "2003-05-16T07:47:18Z")
Let’s try to put this issue in perspective a bit… We’re facing elections within a week in Belgium and the lawyer who wants to put this case on trial is a member of a brand-new muslim extremist party (Resist). My best guess is that they want to draw some attention on themselves and gain support from the muslim immigrants in Belgium by doing so… This party will probably won’t even see the next elections… Anyway… the “Genocide Law” under which he would press charges has been amended over a month ago. Two separate things would nullify his case anyway… Firstly the amendments made clear that only if Belgian citizens (or people who are living here for over 3 years) are harmed the law is applicable. Secondly, if the “accused” originates from a democratic country with comparable legal systems as we have in Belgium, the case would be referred to that country’s courts to do as they see fit… The amendments in the law were in fact a reaction to the fact that some ill-meaning extremists tried to abuse them for their own political agenda… I also find the notion of my country trying to claim some moral highground to be able to put people on trial for crimes against humanity utterly ridiculous. On the other hand, the US also claims the same moral highground to “police” the rest of the world. IMHO the only difference is the fact that you have the military power and political leaders to match your claims. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/16 "2003-05-16T08:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*The real issue is that Belgium has unilaterally arrogated super-national status for its courts. Even the USA has not quite done that. > > This is not some “international” court we’re talking about here. This is a Belgian court. Belgium law claims universal and unlimited jurisdiction. \*\* No you have it wrong, Belgian law does not claim universal juristriction, it’s just that you are allowed to bring cases under international law in Belgium courts. Every high signatoury of the Geneva Convention has the right and the duty to investigate and prosecute breaches. I’m not sure of the exact status in the UK, but charges have been brought, cases have been tried, people prosecuted in the UK too under international law in UK courts. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/17 "2003-05-16T09:44:32Z")
good answer MC. It’s just a pity its going to fall on deaf ears. Expect “Freedom” waffles appearing on your menus soon. ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/18 "2003-05-16T10:10:19Z")
Freedom chocolate, why Freedom Chimay even 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RandySpears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/858c86/32.png) [@RandySpears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandySpears)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/19 "2003-05-16T10:11:27Z")
The little pissing “freedom” boy. ---
**Author:** ![VanShore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f14d63/32.png) [@VanShore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VanShore)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299/20 "2003-05-16T10:47:51Z")
Re-label all of the Belgian beers into Freedom beer #1 - #600 (or #800 depending on the sources)… /sarcasm on: So for those that still wonder why a little country some of you never even heard of dares to take on the world’s strongest military power… How strong would you feel with at least 600 different beers at your disposal? / sarcasm off 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tommy-franks-accused-of-war-crimes-by-belgian-politician/175299.md?page=2)